Permissive or/and designated, on a cycleway on private owned land

General talk Tagging general discussion
1

What is more important to set on private owned land, where a cycleway goes through the forest.
By sign, the owner allowed to cycle on cycleways not on other ways, by signs on the entrance of his land. He gave ways a sign, cycleway. So that we know what are cycleways.

It is not yes, because

until such time as the owner revokes the permission which they are legally allowed to do at any time in the future.
and that happen sometimes.

What could be problems to use a two value tags?
Could this be misunderstood by data users. I am interested in these thoughts.

You can not see a way tagged with only designated if this is a yes of permissive way. This also could also be private.

For me permissive is more important to set.

  • permissive
  • designated
  • permissive;designated
  • designated;permissive
0 voters

Or should we split designated to a other key? When permissive is set as a value.

  • yes
  • no
0 voters
2

Since the topic touches heavily local laws, you might be better off asking the specific local community. There will be no global answer on which tags to use.

In Germany permissive and designated can’t go together. If there is a official sign (aka designated) then there is a public right to use the way, so it can’t be at the same time permissive.

7 Likes
3

Couldn’t it be

highway=cycleway   ← implies bicycle=designated
access=permissive

or

highway=path
bicycle=designated
access=permissive

?

1 Like
4

What is the specific question to which the first poll has the answers?

By the text above I could guess, but I might guess differently.

5

Also, it may be privately owned land, but is this actually relevant for the person on-site?

The argumentation with access=permissive is often that the owner may change his opinion whether one may pass at any moment or even on a case-by-case basis(?). But theoretically, the access restrictions on public ways can also change at “any moment” - i.e. when a different signs are set up.
So, once something is signed on private property, I find the information that it is actually on private land zweitrangig, as the expectation is that the owner will not change the rules willy-nilly without also changing the signs. I.e. the same as on public property.

Like for parking lots in front of big supermarkets. They are tagged access=customers primarily, not access=permissive, because the owner set up signs that only allow customers to park there.

For me, access=permissive is somewhat of a “noone put up a PRIVATE - ACCESS PROHIBITED” sign (yet) situation on a property that is obviously or not-so-obviously private land.

4 Likes
6

designated public right of usage and backed by an official sign
permissive no pubic right of usage, but granted usually to the public (like a black list)
private no public right of usage and usually not granted to the public either (like a white list)

1 Like
7

Indeed, but it is good to read, the difference, in other parts of the world.
I made first a more general poll. It is more about the variation, how to tag it, in such a situation in your country. I know the local situation.

What is in OSM preferred, tags mean the same in the whole world.

As you wrote, the above situation.

Give your opinion

For example a local one.
We come across two signs.
a traffic_sign and a access_sign.

afbeelding
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There basicly two laws in the game, road traffic code and civil code
The owner can use traffic_sign on there property, the traffic law is valid. How you should behave.

But it all depends on where the signs stand, land with, de facto public access, or legal public access. There are documents, where is written, where legal public access ways are.

Here it is, de facto public access, the owner has the right to revokes the permission.
The orange sign says, you can not be there from sunset till sunrise.
But the cycleway blue sign, does not give you the right to use it day and night.

When it is forbidden on one sign, then it is forbidden in the de facto public access area.
Although the cycle path was built specifically for cycling. It is permissive

So the blue cycleway sign must not be mistaken, what it means. It depends …
It could get bicycle=permissive.

How is that in your country?
A situation as in the topic post. permissive or designated or use a two value value.

With a traffic_sign cycleway or even with a ownerssign, written “cyclway”.
The owner can use both methods in a de facto public access area.

afbeelding
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8

Can you use it day and night by right?

I know goverment/municipality can take a decision for a undersign under the traffic_sign, prohibited from sunset till sunrise in a legal public access area. But only in a legal proces. Where locals can give there opinion.
A landowner can do that in a de facto public access area by his own, permissive.

9

at night you will not see this tiny white on brown sign anyway. :wink:

Generally, in Germany, there is no time limitation to the freedom to roam, you can go there anytime, day and night.

10

We have those in England and Wales as well. Significant stretches of the national cycle network here are negotiated between the charity that set up the network and the landowners. Often there is signage saying that the access is permissive. As tagged, this way claims to be an example. So is this, and I think that this might be as well, although the tagging does not reflect it.

Where both designated and permissive apply I suspect we have a mix of values of bicycle. There are almost no semicolon separated values. Whatever is “correct”, at least half of cycleway mappers in England are “doing it wrong” although I have no idea which half!

My personal view (in England) is that bicycle is an access tag and therefore permissive should take precedence, even where designated (although the German idea that “if it is a cycleway there will be a sign” doesn’t really apply here). However, in Scotland I’d likely take a different view, since the default rules there are very different, so it’s difficult to be dogmatic about it.

11

traffic_sign=DE:237

afbeelding
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The majority of these signs, you can use the cycleway, day and night, then there are these exceptions. This topic goes more or less about these. What to tag then?
Where are those?

12

There are no such exceptions in Germany. This sign means you are allowed to cycle 24/7. There might be exceptions to allow additional transportation modes on the way. Private owners can’t change the meaning of an official sign, if they put it.

On private land you can put a custom sign stating that cycling is allowed. That would be bicycle=permissive, but not bicycle=designated as it’s not the official sign.

13

In my country, that is the same!

But they can set a sign next to it, access_sign, with text as: cycles prohibited from sunset till sunrise. They have that option from civil code law, on there owned, de facto public access area. If they, give you a standstill, they can demand that you leave the area and never come back. Mostly a sign is there, but a gate can bet locked and you may not jump over the gate, fence, ditch.

These laws are working next to each other.

They can write that dogs are not allowed or leashed. That access next to the road is prohibited.
For example, you can not take a metal detector with you or a magnet for fishing.

Are there more countries that have laws working next to traffic laws on, de facto public access area?

translated:

Any person who, without being entitled to do so, finds themselves on another person’s land to which access has been prohibited by the rightful owner in a manner apparent to them, or who allows livestock to graze there.

14

What about

highway=cycleway
lanes=2
oneway=no
access=permissive
access=no @ (sunset-sunrise)

for the bicycle way pictured?

15

With two signs, a traffic_sign and a access_sign.

with access=permissive all could use the cycleway.

highway=cycleway
lanes=2
oneway=no
opening_hours=sunrise-sunset
access=no @ (sunset-sunrise)
bicycle=permissive
bicycle:conditional=no @ (sunset-sunrise)
mofa=permissive
mofa:conditonal=no @ (sunset-sunrise)
foot=permissive
foot:conditional=no @ (sunset-sunrise)
traffic_sign=NL:G11
access_sign=NL:SBB
surface=concrete

Conditional is needed to set sunset-sunrise. Because hierarchy, foot, bicycle, mofa, is overrulling access tag.

16

This is on, de facto public access, owned land, and owner can express it as he wants. Rules, you need to step out to read it! They still work!

17

Maybe it does differ by country or legal system. The access=permissive that I’ve seen in the U.S. aren’t saying that the access right is merely impermanent. After all, we don’t require access=yes to be literally set in stone. Rather, access=permissive is the owner saying: I’m giving you notice that I reserve the legal right to refuse you or kick you out if I don’t like what you’re doing here, but… welcome in!

In California and some neighboring states, the sign typically says “Right to pass by permission and subject to control by owner.” This magic phrase invokes a section of the California Civil Code. It’s easy to see how it translates to permissive.