You are not from Europe? How else could you confuse such very different features
Shoulders here only exist on motorways
in Italy at least they occur on other roads as well https://www.mapillary.com/app/?lat=41.283046099972&lng=13.1792011&z=17&pKey=466302267817048&x=0.4591384929796418&y=0.40239650937544347&zoom=0
It is not same (obviously, as a kerb protects better than a painted line; in the same way as a row of bollards or jersey barrier protects better then just a kerb), but it serves the same purpose - movement of pedestrians.
actually this is a false sense of safety, neither a kerb nor the typical row of bollards actually protect pedestrians from automobiles, they think they would be protected when they actually aren’t. Jersey barriers are way more effective, and bollards in theory could be anchored deeper and firmer, but usually they just concede.
There is already opposition on wiki Talk:Sidewalks - OpenStreetMap Wiki
I didn’t see anyone mentioning these would be sidewalks in previous proposals Talk:Proposed features/Pedestrian lane - OpenStreetMap Wiki
That’s an unneeded view. Famously D2M etc shoulder-equiped cross-section standards can found on all-purpose roads, not only motorways in UK.
Shoulders are not limited to motorway shoulders, and even then there are shoulder:*:bicycle= etc provisions in OSM. Them and pedestrians lanes are significantly distinguished from sidewalks.
Japan: 路側帯の違いがわかりますか？ - 人と車の安全な移動をデザインするシンク出版株式会社
Taiwan: 標線型人行道 研考會質疑為路霸解困 - 地方 - 自由時報電子報 https://img.ltn.com.tw/Upload/news/600/2012/04/28/143.jpg (which can counterintuitively exist together with physical sidewalks)
USA: FHWA clearly defines them differently, with appropriate markings Pedestrian Lane - Rural Design Guide Sidewalk - Rural Design Guide
I see, after some confusion half a year ago, and some talking, I thought I finally knew what a shoulder is, but now I see, that a shoulder can be much more than what I ever thought.
In my country, the traffic code is quite straight: A sidewalk is the part of the street set aside for exclusively pedestrian traffic. It must be separated from the carriageway by kerb, ground marking or similar. That’s it. Too simple?
Check the traffic code for pedestrians. There must be something along the lines of:
Art. 108. (1) Pedestrians shall be obliged to move on the sidewalk or the shoulder of the roadway.
(2) Pedestrians may move along the carriageway opposite to the direction of traffic, as near as possible to its left-hand boundary:
- when no sidewalk or shoulder is available or impossible to use;
- when carrying or pushing bulky objects where this obstructs the movement of other pedestrians.
Following this definition, the easiest solution would be to use sidewalk=shoulder (if it’s not mapped separately) or highway=footway + footway=sidewalk + sidewalk=shoulder.
Rules like the mentioned are in the traffic code of countries I know, but these do not make a shoulder a sidewalk, or a carriageway a sidewalk. People must walk on the street in opposite direction without a sidewalk or shoulder, the text explicitly states that a shoulder is not a sidewalk. If there is only a shoulder, mapping an explicit footway with highway=footway would seem an error. The tag for mapping a shoulder is shoulder=* https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key%3Ashoulder
and the specifics are usually implicit (maybe depending on the country, typically it is forbidden to walk on motorways and motorroad=yes, for other roads the general default is access=yes, it may be restricted for more situations based on countryspecific rules).
In theory you are right, but in practice there are “shoulders” which are the official sidewalk. These “shoulders” are forbidden for cars to stop/park/drive on. For such cases, highway=footway + footway=sidewalk + sidewalk=shoulder is the only viable option that I see.
For the photo in the 1st post, sidewalk:right=shoulder is sufficient imho.
I see, maybe these could also be seen as highway=footway, footway=sidewalk, if “they are the official sidewalk”? What makes them a shoulder and not a sidewalk, the missing kerb? For example there is the kerb=no tag
Poland has plenty of shoulders on roads which are not motorways (and if proper sidewalk is missing then pedestrians use shoulders)
A sidewalk is defined by the intended use of the road space. Design plays only a minor role. Examples:
This is NOT a sidewalk (Fig. 5):
This IS a sidewalk (Fig. 6):
Pedestrian Lane (Fig. 7):
The left lane is for cars and cyclists, the right lane for pedestrians only. The classic sidewalk on the far right is demarcated by a narrow green strip.
This form seems to be very rare, I have encountered it only once. At that time I tagged it with “footway:left=lane” (V2 Way History: Istrska cesta / Strada dell'Istria (834351625) | OpenStreetMap). Today I would tag it with “sidewalk:left=yes” and interpret the right sidewalk as not belonging to the street.
My basic problem is that a shoulder on a motorway can’t magically become a sidewalk on a residential road. Each wiki describes a distinct physical structures. Shoulders are an extension of the existing road surface with marking indicating where it is legal for non-motor vehicles traffic to be. Sidewalks are for non-motorized traffic that is separated from the road surface.
Two shoulders; one for emergency use only and the other for pedestrians and bikes.
Motorway shoulder:
highway=primary
shoulder:both:access=emergency
Residential shoulder:
highway=residential
foot=yes
bicycle=yes
this does not indicate presence or lack of shoulder or sidewalk
such way may or may not have sidewalk
such way may or may not have shoulder
neither info is marked here
I also consider the promenade a foopath independent of the street, while the one only separated by ground markings is the sidewalk - something that Austrian code fully supports.
That reminds me of a video, where the then maintainer of the iD editor showcased the new sidewalk mapping features in iD 2.0 and in fact started out with mapping lake side promenades. Maybe there is some cultural stuff? After all, the promenades are on the side of the lake?
| IanH
March 27 |
- | - |
My basic problem is that a shoulder on a motorway can’t magically become a sidewalk on a residential road.
A motorway never becomes a residential road, the sidewalk of a residential road can look the same or very similar to the shoulder of a motorroad, it is not a contradiction, because sidewalk is about intended usage.
Each wiki describes a distinct physical structures. Shoulders are an extension of the existing road surface with marking indicating where it is legal for non-motor vehicles traffic to be. Sidewalks are for non-motorized traffic that is separated from the road surface.
it depends on the area, in many places sidewalks not only exclude motorized traffic but any vehicular traffic. Sidewalks do not have to be physically separated (markings are sufficient)
I’m glad you’ve come to agree to this view that sidewalk is indeed about intended usage - i.e. surface designated to movement of pedestrians! Right? Because, previously, you seemed to have hold opposite stance:
So, you have heard the arguments and changed opinion, right? I have great respect for that! 
Or perhaps you haven’t changed the opinion, and is there some nuance here that I’m missing (i.e. “intended usage to move pedestrians” is somehow different from “activity of pedestrians moving”)?
Based on the wiki description Sidewalks are a structural seperated way designed for pedestrian and/or other non-motorized traffic. That seperation can be in the form of a break in the roadway or by a difference in height between surfaces.
I agree. The post you replied to was however directed specifically to @dieterdreist, as he seemed previously not to agree with that definition, especially part about “designed for pedestrian traffic” (but later seem to have changed his opinion, if I understood that correctly - but I’m not 100% sure, so I’ve asked above for his confirmation).
I fixed that, https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Sidewalks&diff=2497764&oldid=2494266 ; Road markings of course are good enough, as several here have pointed out.
You aren’t fixing the {{questioned}} and {{dubious}} essence of it by changing based on the opinion of “several here”. This has been definition since creation. Sidewalks - OpenStreetMap Wiki
