Organised editing by PostNord in Sweden

@mods-sweden I would like to draw your attention to this thread in German, I hope the translation function works for you.

Brief summary: The company “PostNord” adds poor quality edits on our map and also does not respond to any changeset comments. Not even after more than 3 weeks, although work continues in the meantime.
(Some examples: OpenStreetMap (OSM) Changeset Discussions)
I am not able to find all Postnord accounts. The one linked was already blocked 3 times without changing anything.

I also consider the wiki page maintained by PostNord to be insufficient: PostNord - OpenStreetMap Wiki

All information was provided by me to the DWG for a block from all PostNord accounts.

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“Die Wortwahl “übernommen” finde ich persönlich dennoch etwas hart gewählt.” Finde ich überhaupt nicht.

Zäle mal die Anzahl der “gewöhnlichen” mapper und vergleiche mit der Heerschar der PostNord-mapper. Dann wirst du finden, dass die Wortwahl sehr genau passt.

@mcliquid Thank you. We are aware of the problem and have been in separate communication with PostNord. I just created a thread in Swedish.

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Anbei die Liste der PostNord-User, welche ich finden konnte:

UserId UserName Link Mapper since
15460512 CK_PostNord CK_PostNord | OpenStreetMap 01-Apr-22
17001343 BeaPostnord BeaPostnord | OpenStreetMap 01-Sep-22
15647537 PostNordmalu PostNordmalu | OpenStreetMap 21-Apr-22
17580539 AÖ Postnord AÖ Postnord | OpenStreetMap 04-Nov-22
12118758 Dice PostNord Dice PostNord | OpenStreetMap 05-Nov-20
13407520 PostNordJonas PostNordJonas | OpenStreetMap 25-May-21
16231975 JohanPostnord JohanPostnord | OpenStreetMap 08-Jun-22
10213225 Soren@PostNord Soren@PostNord | OpenStreetMap 09-Aug-19
15452489 Harri-Postnord Harri-Postnord | OpenStreetMap 31-Mar-22
15453030 HannaGPostnord HannaGPostnord | OpenStreetMap 31-Mar-22
15647361 H3nke PostNord H3nke PostNord | OpenStreetMap 21-Apr-22
15647632 åsan postnord åsan postnord | OpenStreetMap 21-Apr-22
15660719 SaraG PostNord SaraG PostNord | OpenStreetMap 22-Apr-22
15452826 006KemoPostNord 006KemoPostNord | OpenStreetMap 31-Mar-22
15453174 Niklas PostNord Niklas PostNord | OpenStreetMap 31-Mar-22
15819592 Snickers-Postnord Snickers-Postnord | OpenStreetMap 03-May-22
15819929 66MatsBPostnord 66MatsBPostnord | OpenStreetMap 03-May-22
14423556 “”“Postnord”“Mjaaaa” "Postnord"Mjaaaa | OpenStreetMap 08-Nov-21
15452861 AndyC77PostNord AndyC77PostNord | OpenStreetMap 31-Mar-22
15454020 clarre1 Postnord clarre1 Postnord | OpenStreetMap 31-Mar-22
15454030 Nolheim Postnord Nolheim Postnord | OpenStreetMap 31-Mar-22
15485616 stuff62 POSTNORD stuff62 POSTNORD | OpenStreetMap 04-Apr-22
15512705 Henke46 Postnord Henke46 Postnord | OpenStreetMap 07-Apr-22
15647422 miey001 PostNord miey001 PostNord | OpenStreetMap 21-Apr-22
15660551 Roger58 Postnord Roger58 Postnord | OpenStreetMap 22-Apr-22
15662039 Malin88 PostNord Malin88 PostNord | OpenStreetMap 22-Apr-22
15819857 danmagn PostNord danmagn PostNord | OpenStreetMap 03-May-22
17607813 moha704 postnord moha704 postnord | OpenStreetMap 07-Nov-22
7454455 Stefanie-PostNord Stefanie-PostNord | OpenStreetMap 10-Jan-18
15453023 EvaWallinpostnord EvaWallinpostnord | OpenStreetMap 31-Mar-22
15648645 Anders Hune postnord Anders Hune postnord | OpenStreetMap April 21, 2022
- The SlowBatch PostNord - -
- TheHappyBatch PostNord - -
- åsan postnord - -
- TheGreen&WhiteBatch_PostNord - -
- markus735 Postnord - -
- Maria Eriksson Postnord - -
- Stefanie-PostNord - -
- abjurstrom_postnord - -
- PostNord Morgan Bif - -
- PostNordJonasHagerstrom - -
- Postnord stefan harming - -
- stuff62 POSTNORD - -
- Nolheim Postnord - -
- Henke46 Postnord - -
- Dice PostNord - -
- 006KemoPostNord - -
- anna_postnord - -
- PostNordJonas - -
- MarcusMedC-PostNord - -
- Kanelbulle Postnord - -
- LöddaPåskina PostNord - -
- (postnord)blåapågar - -
- JGynnerstedt PostNord - -
- Emgu732Postnord - -
- PostNord Katarina - -
- 66MatsBPostnord - -
- Postnord Denniskorv - -
- Snickers-Postnord - -
- danmagn PostNord - -
- markus735 Postnord - -

Außerdem der Link zu OSMCha um all deren Changesets zu finden: OSMCha

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Da sind die drei oben (in #1 und #2) verlinkten Benutzer noch gar nicht mit dabei:
Anders Hune postnord | OpenStreetMap
[…]
[…]

Edit: zwei Benutzer wieder entfernt

Darf ich die Liste vervollständigen. Ich hatte das Wort “übernommen” nicht ohne Grund gewählt.

“The SlowBatch PostNord”
“TheHappyBatch PostNord”
“åsan postnord”
“TheGreen&WhiteBatch_PostNord”
“markus735 Postnord”
“Maria Eriksson Postnord”
“Stefanie-PostNord”
“abjurstrom_postnord”
“PostNord Morgan Bif”
“PostNordJonasHagerstrom”
“Postnord stefan harming”
“stuff62 POSTNORD”
“Nolheim Postnord”
“Henke46 Postnord”
“Dice PostNord”
“006KemoPostNord”
“anna_postnord”
“PostNordJonas”
“MarcusMedC-PostNord”
“Kanelbulle Postnord”
“LöddaPåskina PostNord”
“(postnord)blåapågar”
“JGynnerstedt PostNord”
“Emgu732Postnord”
“PostNord Katarina”
“66MatsBPostnord”
“Postnord Denniskorv”
“Snickers-Postnord”
“danmagn PostNord”
“markus735 Postnord”

1 Like

Streiche bitte die user:

archie (das bin ich), und
AndersAndersson (ein altgedienter user, der nun überhaupt nicht’s mit PostNord zu tun hat).

Danke für die Ergänzung. Ich habe die Liste aktualisiert.

ich (archie) habe ein wenig Verwirrung geschaffen, dadurch, dass ich auf cs verwiesen habe, die ich mit fixme getaggt habe um die fehlerhaften edits von PostNord zu kennzeichnen. mea culpa. Verweis auf die history.

Sorry, mein Fehler. Habe meinen Beitrag korrigiert.

I don’t think blocking them would be a good idea. @riiga seems to have a Team-meeting lined up with them and I think a lot of things will be resolved there.

Es gibt doch immer diese Beschwichtiger. Dann hoffen wir mal, daß so etwas (Stand: neuer Edit heute nachmittag) “seine Lösung findet”:

Way History: 1119592637 | OpenStreetMap und
Way History: 1119588010 | OpenStreetMap

Dieses “ich glaube es wird sich eine Lösung finden” hat dazu geführt, daß wir solche Edits - siehe oben - zu Hauf haben.

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I agree with archie that PostNord user should be blocked. Because right now they have taken over the Swedish part of OSM and are having an army of paid (and lousy) editors changing the map to their private map. Only fullfilling their own purposes.

Until their users are well trained, they will comply to standard Swedish mapping rules, they will respond to questions and they stop behaving like an elephant in an pottery shop, they shall be banned from editing.

If they are not banned, nothing will change, because they are fullfilling their own purposes each day.

Right now they continue to vandalize the map, while we sit nicely and are hoping for a Teams-meeting (which they postpones). Something more drastical is needed.

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Das ganze ist ein Dilemma. Es gibt wenige engagierte mappar in Schweden, da merkt man halt wenn eine Heerschar von firmenbezahlten Mitarbeitern plötslich lausige Edits einbringen. Und das ganze schon seit März, und keiner macht den Mund auf und sagt was Sache ist. Und bis ein blocking geschieht - das wird dauern - wird noch viel Mist eingegeben werden, alles unter dem Vorwand osm zu verbessern. Ganz toll!

Meine ursprüngliche Frage war, ob dies schon anderweitig vorgekommen ist.

Dann kann man ja auch einen Schritt weiter nachdenken. Was wäre wenn die gleiche Situation eingetreten wäre und alle Edits von hervorragender Qualität wären? Dann wäre es mit der Qualität von osm dufte aber osm wäre kein community-Projekt mehr, das von Freiwilligen getragen wird. Allso was machen in einer solchen Lage?

Leute, arbeitet schön, morgen wird ein grosses Unternehmen das editieren von osm übernehmen.

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Ja ist es. Schon mehrfach. Apple Data Team, Mapbox, Grab, Bolt, Amazon, TomTom, Facebook, Kaart, Microsoft, … Die Auflistung wäre unendlich lange.

Wenn man nun aber schon so weit geht, alle organisierten Edits in OSM als “kritisch” einzustufen, dann sollte man sich erstmal die Liste der vergangenen Imports ansehen, welche größtenteils von kommerziellen Unternehmen erfasst worden sind, auch wenn sie von staatlichen Quellen für OSM zur Verfügung gestellt worden sind.

Würden wir (ganz hypothetisch) alle Änderungen von kommerziellen / organisierten “Firmen” aus OSM löschen, wäre unsere Karte ziemlich leer.

Weitere Quellen:

Given that they haven’t been very active in their communication I don’t have a problem with blocking them until some type of meeting can be arranged or an agreement reached with the Swedish OSM community.

Hi,

the DWG has been contacted about this April 2022. At that time the
community was unclear who was behind this activity. The DWG blocked all
users (that existed at the time) with a 0-hour block

The DWG was then contacted by a person from PostNord asking to get in
touch. We wrote to them: (I’m pasting a quote here in the hope that the
Discourse Email interface won’t blindly throw anything away that looks
like a quote):

Are you behind the activities of the mappers we have recently asked to pause their activities?

OpenStreetMap has a policy that governs such “organised editing” and this requires, above all, transparency (i.e. everyone should be able to see whom the mappers get their instructions from) and a dialogue with the community (i.e. you should contact the Swedish mailing list or Forum and say, hey we’re X and we want to do Y, any comments on that before we start).

You can view the guidelines here: Organised Editing Guidelines - OpenStreetMap Foundation

Mappers were especially concerned that your team members seem to be tracing data off of official Swedish maps, when a much more precise process is already in use by the community where the data is imported directly from the shape files: Import/Catalogue/Sweden highway import - OpenStreetMap Wiki

Also, mappers are generally expected to respond to questions asked of them, and your team members instead ignored such questions and continued their work.

and when the mappers continued to map after that, we emailed the person
again in May:

your editors are continuing to violate our organised editing guidelines by not disclosing whom they work for, by not having discussed the project with the community in advance, and by not responding to changeset comments.

Please fix this, or all involved contributors will be blocked permanently and their contributions removed.

Theyreplied:

Sorry for the delay I have been pretty busy but will look into more now.
You have not introduced yourself but I guess you are working for the central OSM organization?

“Mappers” are concerned, who are they, do you have any name I can contact?
As a comment on that topic, we are very knowledge about this and for “precise” I would not exactly use that word.
Its good but has many errors (it’s still humans doing it), we want to test OSM instead as the bureaucratic process for changes takes too long (NVDB)
OSM (Sweden) has lots of roads missing where people live and that is what we are focusing on…
The only community I could find was this one Sverige (Sweden) - OpenStreetMap Community Forum

The editors should respond to comments, I will look into that.

and then the issue got a bit sidetracked at DWG, we only talked to them
again in September and wrote:

I see that many of your mappers have now renamed their accounts to something with “PostNord” in the name which is a good first step.

Are https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/MiaMia1 and https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/Sharming also working for you? They should do the same.

Also all your mappers should add some message in their user profile that links to a documentation of exactly what it is you are doing. What data sources are you using, what is your goal, and how can you be contacted if there are problems.

This is outlined in the Organised Editing Guidelines to which I have already sent you a link. You still have not documented your project in Organised Editing/Activities - OpenStreetMap Wiki which is also a requirement.

You have made a post in June on PostNord börjar testa med OSM - Sverige (Sweden) - OpenStreetMap Community Forum but you have ignored the replies that were given there. Your mappers also frequently ignore questions on their changesets, e.g. this one here of 5 months ago: Changeset: 120163427 | OpenStreetMap

Please pause your activities until these issues are remedied. Engage with the community on the forum I pointed to above and resolve the problems that exist with your contributions.

And the response, in September also, was:

I’m on it, I needed to wait until summer holidays has ended (June-august) to have everyone back.

We will get a meeting about the requirement on wiki page and who should be the contact etc.

Why there is no response from the editors seems to be that they don’t get any messages in their mailboxes when there is comments on a changeset.
Then it will be hard to know if someone do comments, I have not seen any settings to activate for comments to show up in mailbox.
So “ignored” is the wrong word here, they just don’t seems to see them, and only way is to get thru all “My Edits” to find them…

When I hear now that PostNord are dragging their feet on their
responsibilities according the organised editing guidelines, I’m totally
happy to block all the accounts until a clear plan has been agreed on
with the Swedish community - and if desired we can also roll back all
their contributions. It all hinges on who in the community they have
been talking to and what those in the Swedish community want…

Bye
Frederik

16 Likes

Thank you Frederik!

From my point of view, I would block all the accounts (until further notice?).
Whether the changes need to be reset should be evaluated and decided by the Swedish community.

Thanks a lot in the meantime.

@mcliquid Danke für die Antwort. Wenn ich das recht verstanden habe waren dies vor allen Dingen Importe aus öffentlichen Datenquellen. Hier handelt es sich um manuelle Edits, die wie schon geschildert oftmals sehr schlecht sind.
Das dumme an der Sache ist, dass es Importmöglichkeiten gibt aus der öffentlichen Strassendatenbank (NVDB). Ich glaube Woodpecker hat es in seiner Antword angerissen.

Ich hatte drei Links geteilt. Der erste verwies tatsächlich auf automatisierte Importe und damit auf öffentliche / kommerzielle Datenquellen.

Bei den zwei letzteren Links handelt es sich um die gleiche Zusammenstellung von Mappern wie bei PostNord. Schau dir beispielsweise mal die Liste der Mapbox Mappern an. Das sind annähernd 100 Personen, die bezahlt, manuell in OpenStreetMap arbeiten.

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