Organised editing by PostNord in Sweden

Das ganze ist ein Dilemma. Es gibt wenige engagierte mappar in Schweden, da merkt man halt wenn eine Heerschar von firmenbezahlten Mitarbeitern plötslich lausige Edits einbringen. Und das ganze schon seit März, und keiner macht den Mund auf und sagt was Sache ist. Und bis ein blocking geschieht - das wird dauern - wird noch viel Mist eingegeben werden, alles unter dem Vorwand osm zu verbessern. Ganz toll!

Meine ursprüngliche Frage war, ob dies schon anderweitig vorgekommen ist.

Dann kann man ja auch einen Schritt weiter nachdenken. Was wäre wenn die gleiche Situation eingetreten wäre und alle Edits von hervorragender Qualität wären? Dann wäre es mit der Qualität von osm dufte aber osm wäre kein community-Projekt mehr, das von Freiwilligen getragen wird. Allso was machen in einer solchen Lage?

Leute, arbeitet schön, morgen wird ein grosses Unternehmen das editieren von osm übernehmen.


Ja ist es. Schon mehrfach. Apple Data Team, Mapbox, Grab, Bolt, Amazon, TomTom, Facebook, Kaart, Microsoft, … Die Auflistung wäre unendlich lange.

Wenn man nun aber schon so weit geht, alle organisierten Edits in OSM als “kritisch” einzustufen, dann sollte man sich erstmal die Liste der vergangenen Imports ansehen, welche größtenteils von kommerziellen Unternehmen erfasst worden sind, auch wenn sie von staatlichen Quellen für OSM zur Verfügung gestellt worden sind.

Würden wir (ganz hypothetisch) alle Änderungen von kommerziellen / organisierten “Firmen” aus OSM löschen, wäre unsere Karte ziemlich leer.

Weitere Quellen:

Given that they haven’t been very active in their communication I don’t have a problem with blocking them until some type of meeting can be arranged or an agreement reached with the Swedish OSM community.


the DWG has been contacted about this April 2022. At that time the
community was unclear who was behind this activity. The DWG blocked all
users (that existed at the time) with a 0-hour block

The DWG was then contacted by a person from PostNord asking to get in
touch. We wrote to them: (I’m pasting a quote here in the hope that the
Discourse Email interface won’t blindly throw anything away that looks
like a quote):

Are you behind the activities of the mappers we have recently asked to pause their activities?

OpenStreetMap has a policy that governs such “organised editing” and this requires, above all, transparency (i.e. everyone should be able to see whom the mappers get their instructions from) and a dialogue with the community (i.e. you should contact the Swedish mailing list or Forum and say, hey we’re X and we want to do Y, any comments on that before we start).

You can view the guidelines here: Organised Editing Guidelines - OpenStreetMap Foundation

Mappers were especially concerned that your team members seem to be tracing data off of official Swedish maps, when a much more precise process is already in use by the community where the data is imported directly from the shape files: Import/Catalogue/Sweden highway import - OpenStreetMap Wiki

Also, mappers are generally expected to respond to questions asked of them, and your team members instead ignored such questions and continued their work.

and when the mappers continued to map after that, we emailed the person
again in May:

your editors are continuing to violate our organised editing guidelines by not disclosing whom they work for, by not having discussed the project with the community in advance, and by not responding to changeset comments.

Please fix this, or all involved contributors will be blocked permanently and their contributions removed.


Sorry for the delay I have been pretty busy but will look into more now.
You have not introduced yourself but I guess you are working for the central OSM organization?

“Mappers” are concerned, who are they, do you have any name I can contact?
As a comment on that topic, we are very knowledge about this and for “precise” I would not exactly use that word.
Its good but has many errors (it’s still humans doing it), we want to test OSM instead as the bureaucratic process for changes takes too long (NVDB)
OSM (Sweden) has lots of roads missing where people live and that is what we are focusing on…
The only community I could find was this one users: Sweden / OpenStreetMap Forum

The editors should respond to comments, I will look into that.

and then the issue got a bit sidetracked at DWG, we only talked to them
again in September and wrote:

I see that many of your mappers have now renamed their accounts to something with “PostNord” in the name which is a good first step.

Are and also working for you? They should do the same.

Also all your mappers should add some message in their user profile that links to a documentation of exactly what it is you are doing. What data sources are you using, what is your goal, and how can you be contacted if there are problems.

This is outlined in the Organised Editing Guidelines to which I have already sent you a link. You still have not documented your project in Organised Editing/Activities - OpenStreetMap Wiki which is also a requirement.

You have made a post in June on PostNord börjar testa med OSM / users: Sweden / OpenStreetMap Forum but you have ignored the replies that were given there. Your mappers also frequently ignore questions on their changesets, e.g. this one here of 5 months ago: Changeset: 120163427 | OpenStreetMap

Please pause your activities until these issues are remedied. Engage with the community on the forum I pointed to above and resolve the problems that exist with your contributions.

And the response, in September also, was:

I’m on it, I needed to wait until summer holidays has ended (June-august) to have everyone back.

We will get a meeting about the requirement on wiki page and who should be the contact etc.

Why there is no response from the editors seems to be that they don’t get any messages in their mailboxes when there is comments on a changeset.
Then it will be hard to know if someone do comments, I have not seen any settings to activate for comments to show up in mailbox.
So “ignored” is the wrong word here, they just don’t seems to see them, and only way is to get thru all “My Edits” to find them…

When I hear now that PostNord are dragging their feet on their
responsibilities according the organised editing guidelines, I’m totally
happy to block all the accounts until a clear plan has been agreed on
with the Swedish community - and if desired we can also roll back all
their contributions. It all hinges on who in the community they have
been talking to and what those in the Swedish community want…



Thank you Frederik!

From my point of view, I would block all the accounts (until further notice?).
Whether the changes need to be reset should be evaluated and decided by the Swedish community.

Thanks a lot in the meantime.

@mcliquid Danke für die Antwort. Wenn ich das recht verstanden habe waren dies vor allen Dingen Importe aus öffentlichen Datenquellen. Hier handelt es sich um manuelle Edits, die wie schon geschildert oftmals sehr schlecht sind.
Das dumme an der Sache ist, dass es Importmöglichkeiten gibt aus der öffentlichen Strassendatenbank (NVDB). Ich glaube Woodpecker hat es in seiner Antword angerissen.

Ich hatte drei Links geteilt. Der erste verwies tatsächlich auf automatisierte Importe und damit auf öffentliche / kommerzielle Datenquellen.

Bei den zwei letzteren Links handelt es sich um die gleiche Zusammenstellung von Mappern wie bei PostNord. Schau dir beispielsweise mal die Liste der Mapbox Mappern an. Das sind annähernd 100 Personen, die bezahlt, manuell in OpenStreetMap arbeiten.


Thanks for the history!

I want to add that they seem to read the comments and sometimes they even fix the problem they created. But very seldom they resond to a comment, and never explain anything.

My opinion (as part of the Swedish community) is that we can leave what they have done (and the community can start to clean it).

My view is that they are welcome again (after at least several weeks ban, since they have history of just ignoring and continuing). Then they (both editors and managers at PostNord) hopefully have realised how bad they have behaved. If/when they realise that they will also start to look more into what is required to make good edits for the whole OSM, not just for PostNord.


@riiga @AndersAndersson Still unsure about a block, I’ve checked some of the edits manually earlier when they contacted us on the Facebook group, I have not really had problems with them. I am not a purist though to a fault sometimes.

My opinion is same as @AndersAndersson. No need of reverting edits, but stop PostNord doing anything until they realize they have to follow the rules.

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I wasn’t aware this had been such a long story. I changed my mind. Banning is :+1: :slight_smile:


Ich habe die PostNord-Benutzer jetzt gesperrt und alles weitere drüben
im schwedischen Forum erklärt.


Dankeschön! Soweit ich es gesehen habe, haben die von @archie aufgelisteten Nutzer nun noch keine Sperre, die Liste wäre hier: OSM in Schweden übernommen - #13 by archie

Eventuell müsste hier die Sperre erweitert werden.

moderation mode
I think this is an absolutely blatant case. However, this has nothing to do with the German community as such. I will therefore move the thread to the “general talk” channel and change the title to English.

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Ok, danke @mcliquid!
Mir ist nicht bekannt nach welchen Kriterien diese manuellen edits gemacht wurden.
Ein PostNord-mapper hat gerade in einem Kommentar zu einem cs zugegeben, dass PostNord die Wege in osm für das kartensystem der Firma anpasst. Siehe Kommentar zu: Changeset: 129774012 | OpenStreetMap. Ich würde sagen da geht ein ganz grosses “don’t edit for the renderer” ab. Oder irre ich mich?
Meine ursprüngliche These war “osm in Schweden übernommen”. Du meintest, dies wäre übertrieben. Wie sieht es im Lichte des oben angeführten Tatbestandes damit nun aus?

Ich habe dies schon lange geahnt. Arbeite mit mapcss-Datei für die Wegtypen. Wenn man sich die einzelnen Edits der PostNord-Leute anguckt, kann man schnell sehen was da geschieht (alles in der gleichen Farbe). Wie die/der PostNord-Kartierer so richtig eingeräumt hat, alle Wege werden zu “unclassified” getaggt und aufgeteilt damit es mit dem Kartensystem der Firma PostNord zusammenpasst.

Dies hätte man schon vor Monaten sehen können und ansprechen müssen. Jetzt sind dreiviertel Jahr vergangen seit dem dies angefangen hat.

Die Wege/Straßen, die nach PostNord-editerung nicht berichtigt wurden nüssen leider als an PostNords System angepasst angesehen werden.

Ich glaube PostNord hat aufgrund der wenigen engagierten mappers in Schweden osm als leichte Beute gesehen. … für eine Übernahme…

[ich habe als neuer user hier im Forum für 18 Stunden keine Antworten geben können; diese Antwort hat desshalb im Ordner für Entwürfe gelegen. Bitte om Nachsicht für die Verspätung]


Dem stimme ich zu (wobei “Renderer” hier weiter gefasst ist). OSM sollte nicht an das PostNord-System angepasst werden, sondern deren System an OSM.


Alles was gut und recht ist, aber

a) die Schwedische Community ist ~ im Verhältnis ähnlich gross relativ zur Bevölkerung wie z.B. in DACH.
b) PostNord macht ~10% der Top 500 Mapper über die letzten Monate aus, und der/die fleissigste ist auf Rang 12.
c) Das Corporate Mapper manchmal daneben liegen ist nicht aussergewöhnlich (siehe z.B. Amazon Logistics in der UK). Wenn die Mapper nicht reagieren, dann geht man den Weg über die DWG, das ist ein Grund wieso es die Gruppe gibt.

M.a.W. kannst du bitte die Verschwörungstheorien etwas herunterfahren?


@SafetyIng @mods-germany

Next time a thread is moved, would it be possible to leave some form of notice in its old place? Maybe just create a new thread with the same title, write your mod-comment about the move in there and then close the topic?
I just seriously doubted my sanity because I couldn’t find this thread anywhere anymore until I realized you had moved it to a completely different section.



Danke für die Statistik!
Du lässt eines jedoch auser acht. Die Corporate edits sind in diesem Fall in einer jeweils kurzen Zeitspanne geschehen, nämlich zu Wochearbeitszeiten ~ 9-16 Uhr. Und da schleicht sich leicht ein Gefühl der Übermacht ein. Das scheinst du mit Verschwörungstheorien zu verwechseln.

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I give you some examples of why they shall be blocked.
This is from today (and from one of the less worse editors):

You can compare the direction of the short service-way with google maps:

The houses are new and not avaliable on any aerial photos, so they (drawn by me after a survey on the place) where probably some meters off. But PostNord has changed the direction of the already existing service way to come closer to the houses. This is pure vandalism. Corrupting the map to fit their own purposes.

Another older one (without any response for the changeset comment):

If you compare this with aerial photos you see that this new way has no correspondence to reality at all.

Now Woodpecker has corrected this somewhat and moved the houses, but earlier the way went both through the house and the garage. I assume it is therefore it has a layer value. But to draw something like this you really have to give a fuck about anything but your own purposes.

I can give you a lot of other examples from other PostNord editors, but I think these ones should make my point clear.

This is not PostNord’s private map and they shall be banned as soon as possible.