Organised editing by PostNord in Sweden

Shaun_das_Schaf · 2022-12-05T14:50:34.952Z

Was mir außerdem auffällt ist, dass beide von dir verlinkten Accounts in ihrem Profil nirgends darauf hinweisen, für wen sie arbeiten. Das ist aber laut Organized Editing Guidlines erforderlich:
Organised Editing Guidelines - OpenStreetMap Foundation

Im Wiki finde ich nur diese mickrige Seite zu PostNord: PostNord - OpenStreetMap Wiki
Auch das ist so nicht ausreichend.

Auch die anderen Punkte der Organized Editing Guidlines scheinen nicht wirklich befolgt zu werden.

archie · 2022-12-05T14:51:19.659Z

… und so geht das weiter Edit für Edit: Way: 1119610509 | OpenStreetMap

mcliquid · 2022-12-05T14:56:40.521Z

Die DWG wurde informiert. Der verlinkte Account wurde in der Vergangenheit bereits drei Mal gesperrt, ohne das sich offensichtlich etwas geändert hat.
Die Wiki-Seite habe ich der DWG ebenfalls verlinkt mit dem Hinweis auf fehlende Informationen wie beispielsweise eine Auflistung aller genutzten Accounts.

@archie Vielen Dank für den Hinweis.

mcliquid · 2022-12-05T14:59:35.336Z

@mods-sweden I would like to draw your attention to this thread in German, I hope the translation function works for you.

Brief summary: The company “PostNord” adds poor quality edits on our map and also does not respond to any changeset comments. Not even after more than 3 weeks, although work continues in the meantime.
(Some examples: OpenStreetMap (OSM) Changeset Discussions)
I am not able to find all Postnord accounts. The one linked was already blocked 3 times without changing anything.

I also consider the wiki page maintained by PostNord to be insufficient: PostNord - OpenStreetMap Wiki

All information was provided by me to the DWG for a block from all PostNord accounts.

archie · 2022-12-05T15:00:49.879Z

“Die Wortwahl “übernommen” finde ich persönlich dennoch etwas hart gewählt.” Finde ich überhaupt nicht.

Zäle mal die Anzahl der “gewöhnlichen” mapper und vergleiche mit der Heerschar der PostNord-mapper. Dann wirst du finden, dass die Wortwahl sehr genau passt.

riiga · 2022-12-05T15:05:14.443Z

@mcliquid Thank you. We are aware of the problem and have been in separate communication with PostNord. I just created a thread in Swedish.

mcliquid · 2022-12-05T15:25:47.110Z

Anbei die Liste der PostNord-User, welche ich finden konnte:

UserId	UserName	Link	Mapper since
15460512	CK_PostNord	CK_PostNord \| OpenStreetMap	01-Apr-22
17001343	BeaPostnord	BeaPostnord \| OpenStreetMap	01-Sep-22
15647537	PostNordmalu	PostNordmalu \| OpenStreetMap	21-Apr-22
17580539	AÖ Postnord	AÖ Postnord \| OpenStreetMap	04-Nov-22
12118758	Dice PostNord	Dice PostNord \| OpenStreetMap	05-Nov-20
13407520	PostNordJonas	PostNordJonas \| OpenStreetMap	25-May-21
16231975	JohanPostnord	JohanPostnord \| OpenStreetMap	08-Jun-22
10213225	Soren@PostNord	Soren@PostNord \| OpenStreetMap	09-Aug-19
15452489	Harri-Postnord	Harri-Postnord \| OpenStreetMap	31-Mar-22
15453030	HannaGPostnord	HannaGPostnord \| OpenStreetMap	31-Mar-22
15647361	H3nke PostNord	H3nke PostNord \| OpenStreetMap	21-Apr-22
15647632	åsan postnord	åsan postnord \| OpenStreetMap	21-Apr-22
15660719	SaraG PostNord	SaraG PostNord \| OpenStreetMap	22-Apr-22
15452826	006KemoPostNord	006KemoPostNord \| OpenStreetMap	31-Mar-22
15453174	Niklas PostNord	Niklas PostNord \| OpenStreetMap	31-Mar-22
15819592	Snickers-Postnord	Snickers-Postnord \| OpenStreetMap	03-May-22
15819929	66MatsBPostnord	66MatsBPostnord \| OpenStreetMap	03-May-22
14423556	“”“Postnord”“Mjaaaa”	"Postnord"Mjaaaa \| OpenStreetMap	08-Nov-21
15452861	AndyC77PostNord	AndyC77PostNord \| OpenStreetMap	31-Mar-22
15454020	clarre1 Postnord	clarre1 Postnord \| OpenStreetMap	31-Mar-22
15454030	Nolheim Postnord	Nolheim Postnord \| OpenStreetMap	31-Mar-22
15485616	stuff62 POSTNORD	stuff62 POSTNORD \| OpenStreetMap	04-Apr-22
15512705	Henke46 Postnord	Henke46 Postnord \| OpenStreetMap	07-Apr-22
15647422	miey001 PostNord	miey001 PostNord \| OpenStreetMap	21-Apr-22
15660551	Roger58 Postnord	Roger58 Postnord \| OpenStreetMap	22-Apr-22
15662039	Malin88 PostNord	Malin88 PostNord \| OpenStreetMap	22-Apr-22
15819857	danmagn PostNord	danmagn PostNord \| OpenStreetMap	03-May-22
17607813	moha704 postnord	moha704 postnord \| OpenStreetMap	07-Nov-22
7454455	Stefanie-PostNord	Stefanie-PostNord \| OpenStreetMap	10-Jan-18
15453023	EvaWallinpostnord	EvaWallinpostnord \| OpenStreetMap	31-Mar-22
15648645	Anders Hune postnord	Anders Hune postnord \| OpenStreetMap	April 21, 2022
-	The SlowBatch PostNord	-	-
-	TheHappyBatch PostNord	-	-
-	åsan postnord	-	-
-	TheGreen&WhiteBatch_PostNord	-	-
-	markus735 Postnord	-	-
-	Maria Eriksson Postnord	-	-
-	Stefanie-PostNord	-	-
-	abjurstrom_postnord	-	-
-	PostNord Morgan Bif	-	-
-	PostNordJonasHagerstrom	-	-
-	Postnord stefan harming	-	-
-	stuff62 POSTNORD	-	-
-	Nolheim Postnord	-	-
-	Henke46 Postnord	-	-
-	Dice PostNord	-	-
-	006KemoPostNord	-	-
-	anna_postnord	-	-
-	PostNordJonas	-	-
-	MarcusMedC-PostNord	-	-
-	Kanelbulle Postnord	-	-
-	LöddaPåskina PostNord	-	-
-	(postnord)blåapågar	-	-
-	JGynnerstedt PostNord	-	-
-	Emgu732Postnord	-	-
-	PostNord Katarina	-	-
-	66MatsBPostnord	-	-
-	Postnord Denniskorv	-	-
-	Snickers-Postnord	-	-
-	danmagn PostNord	-	-
-	markus735 Postnord	-	-

Außerdem der Link zu OSMCha um all deren Changesets zu finden: OSMCha

Shaun_das_Schaf · 2022-12-05T15:37:24.488Z

Da sind die drei oben (in #1 und #2) verlinkten Benutzer noch gar nicht mit dabei:
Anders Hune postnord | OpenStreetMap
[…]
[…]

Edit: zwei Benutzer wieder entfernt

archie · 2022-12-05T15:40:16.686Z

Darf ich die Liste vervollständigen. Ich hatte das Wort “übernommen” nicht ohne Grund gewählt.

“The SlowBatch PostNord”
“TheHappyBatch PostNord”
“åsan postnord”
“TheGreen&WhiteBatch_PostNord”
“markus735 Postnord”
“Maria Eriksson Postnord”
“Stefanie-PostNord”
“abjurstrom_postnord”
“PostNord Morgan Bif”
“PostNordJonasHagerstrom”
“Postnord stefan harming”
“stuff62 POSTNORD”
“Nolheim Postnord”
“Henke46 Postnord”
“Dice PostNord”
“006KemoPostNord”
“anna_postnord”
“PostNordJonas”
“MarcusMedC-PostNord”
“Kanelbulle Postnord”
“LöddaPåskina PostNord”
“(postnord)blåapågar”
“JGynnerstedt PostNord”
“Emgu732Postnord”
“PostNord Katarina”
“66MatsBPostnord”
“Postnord Denniskorv”
“Snickers-Postnord”
“danmagn PostNord”
“markus735 Postnord”

archie · 2022-12-05T15:42:05.580Z

Streiche bitte die user:

archie (das bin ich), und
AndersAndersson (ein altgedienter user, der nun überhaupt nicht’s mit PostNord zu tun hat).

mcliquid · 2022-12-05T15:43:40.932Z

Danke für die Ergänzung. Ich habe die Liste aktualisiert.

archie · 2022-12-05T15:44:53.927Z

ich (archie) habe ein wenig Verwirrung geschaffen, dadurch, dass ich auf cs verwiesen habe, die ich mit fixme getaggt habe um die fehlerhaften edits von PostNord zu kennzeichnen. mea culpa. Verweis auf die history.

Shaun_das_Schaf · 2022-12-05T15:53:58.189Z

Sorry, mein Fehler. Habe meinen Beitrag korrigiert.

Wulfmorn · 2022-12-05T16:14:31.786Z

I don’t think blocking them would be a good idea. @riiga seems to have a Team-meeting lined up with them and I think a lot of things will be resolved there.

archie · 2022-12-05T16:46:57.618Z

Es gibt doch immer diese Beschwichtiger. Dann hoffen wir mal, daß so etwas (Stand: neuer Edit heute nachmittag) “seine Lösung findet”:

Way History: 1119592637 | OpenStreetMap und
Way History: 1119588010 | OpenStreetMap

Dieses “ich glaube es wird sich eine Lösung finden” hat dazu geführt, daß wir solche Edits - siehe oben - zu Hauf haben.

AndersAndersson · 2022-12-05T17:04:41.491Z

I agree with archie that PostNord user should be blocked. Because right now they have taken over the Swedish part of OSM and are having an army of paid (and lousy) editors changing the map to their private map. Only fullfilling their own purposes.

Until their users are well trained, they will comply to standard Swedish mapping rules, they will respond to questions and they stop behaving like an elephant in an pottery shop, they shall be banned from editing.

If they are not banned, nothing will change, because they are fullfilling their own purposes each day.

Right now they continue to vandalize the map, while we sit nicely and are hoping for a Teams-meeting (which they postpones). Something more drastical is needed.

archie · 2022-12-05T17:30:06.492Z

Das ganze ist ein Dilemma. Es gibt wenige engagierte mappar in Schweden, da merkt man halt wenn eine Heerschar von firmenbezahlten Mitarbeitern plötslich lausige Edits einbringen. Und das ganze schon seit März, und keiner macht den Mund auf und sagt was Sache ist. Und bis ein blocking geschieht - das wird dauern - wird noch viel Mist eingegeben werden, alles unter dem Vorwand osm zu verbessern. Ganz toll!

Meine ursprüngliche Frage war, ob dies schon anderweitig vorgekommen ist.

Dann kann man ja auch einen Schritt weiter nachdenken. Was wäre wenn die gleiche Situation eingetreten wäre und alle Edits von hervorragender Qualität wären? Dann wäre es mit der Qualität von osm dufte aber osm wäre kein community-Projekt mehr, das von Freiwilligen getragen wird. Allso was machen in einer solchen Lage?

Leute, arbeitet schön, morgen wird ein grosses Unternehmen das editieren von osm übernehmen.

mcliquid · 2022-12-05T18:28:55.843Z

archie:

Meine ursprüngliche Frage war, ob dies schon anderweitig vorgekommen ist.

Ja ist es. Schon mehrfach. Apple Data Team, Mapbox, Grab, Bolt, Amazon, TomTom, Facebook, Kaart, Microsoft, … Die Auflistung wäre unendlich lange.

Wenn man nun aber schon so weit geht, alle organisierten Edits in OSM als “kritisch” einzustufen, dann sollte man sich erstmal die Liste der vergangenen Imports ansehen, welche größtenteils von kommerziellen Unternehmen erfasst worden sind, auch wenn sie von staatlichen Quellen für OSM zur Verfügung gestellt worden sind.

Würden wir (ganz hypothetisch) alle Änderungen von kommerziellen / organisierten “Firmen” aus OSM löschen, wäre unsere Karte ziemlich leer.

Weitere Quellen:

Eine Liste bekannter (organisierten) Aktivitäten
Die Liste der bekannten (bezahlten) Teams / Firmen

riiga · 2022-12-05T18:43:57.503Z

Given that they haven’t been very active in their communication I don’t have a problem with blocking them until some type of meeting can be arranged or an agreement reached with the Swedish OSM community.

woodpeck · 2022-12-05T18:51:41.000Z

Hi,

the DWG has been contacted about this April 2022. At that time the
community was unclear who was behind this activity. The DWG blocked all
users (that existed at the time) with a 0-hour block

OpenStreetMap

HenrikKarlstad PostNord blocked by woodpeck | OpenStreetMap

OpenStreetMap is a map of the world, created by people like you and free to use under an open license.

The DWG was then contacted by a person from PostNord asking to get in
touch. We wrote to them: (I’m pasting a quote here in the hope that the
Discourse Email interface won’t blindly throw anything away that looks
like a quote):

Are you behind the activities of the mappers we have recently asked to pause their activities?

OpenStreetMap has a policy that governs such “organised editing” and this requires, above all, transparency (i.e. everyone should be able to see whom the mappers get their instructions from) and a dialogue with the community (i.e. you should contact the Swedish mailing list or Forum and say, hey we’re X and we want to do Y, any comments on that before we start).

You can view the guidelines here: Organised Editing Guidelines - OpenStreetMap Foundation

Mappers were especially concerned that your team members seem to be tracing data off of official Swedish maps, when a much more precise process is already in use by the community where the data is imported directly from the shape files: Import/Catalogue/Sweden highway import - OpenStreetMap Wiki

Also, mappers are generally expected to respond to questions asked of them, and your team members instead ignored such questions and continued their work.

and when the mappers continued to map after that, we emailed the person
again in May:

your editors are continuing to violate our organised editing guidelines by not disclosing whom they work for, by not having discussed the project with the community in advance, and by not responding to changeset comments.

Please fix this, or all involved contributors will be blocked permanently and their contributions removed.

Theyreplied:

Sorry for the delay I have been pretty busy but will look into more now.
You have not introduced yourself but I guess you are working for the central OSM organization?

“Mappers” are concerned, who are they, do you have any name I can contact?
As a comment on that topic, we are very knowledge about this and for “precise” I would not exactly use that word.
Its good but has many errors (it’s still humans doing it), we want to test OSM instead as the bureaucratic process for changes takes too long (NVDB)
OSM (Sweden) has lots of roads missing where people live and that is what we are focusing on…
The only community I could find was this one Sverige (Sweden) - OpenStreetMap Community Forum

The editors should respond to comments, I will look into that.

and then the issue got a bit sidetracked at DWG, we only talked to them
again in September and wrote:

I see that many of your mappers have now renamed their accounts to something with “PostNord” in the name which is a good first step.

Are https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/MiaMia1 and https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/Sharming also working for you? They should do the same.

Also all your mappers should add some message in their user profile that links to a documentation of exactly what it is you are doing. What data sources are you using, what is your goal, and how can you be contacted if there are problems.

This is outlined in the Organised Editing Guidelines to which I have already sent you a link. You still have not documented your project in Organised Editing/Activities - OpenStreetMap Wiki which is also a requirement.

You have made a post in June on PostNord börjar testa med OSM - Sverige (Sweden) - OpenStreetMap Community Forum but you have ignored the replies that were given there. Your mappers also frequently ignore questions on their changesets, e.g. this one here of 5 months ago: Changeset: 120163427 | OpenStreetMap

Please pause your activities until these issues are remedied. Engage with the community on the forum I pointed to above and resolve the problems that exist with your contributions.

And the response, in September also, was:

I’m on it, I needed to wait until summer holidays has ended (June-august) to have everyone back.

We will get a meeting about the requirement on wiki page and who should be the contact etc.

Why there is no response from the editors seems to be that they don’t get any messages in their mailboxes when there is comments on a changeset.
Then it will be hard to know if someone do comments, I have not seen any settings to activate for comments to show up in mailbox.
So “ignored” is the wrong word here, they just don’t seems to see them, and only way is to get thru all “My Edits” to find them…

When I hear now that PostNord are dragging their feet on their
responsibilities according the organised editing guidelines, I’m totally
happy to block all the accounts until a clear plan has been agreed on
with the Swedish community - and if desired we can also roll back all
their contributions. It all hinges on who in the community they have
been talking to and what those in the Swedish community want…

Bye
Frederik