"Names" in Algeria

The suggestion you made is completely unacceptable (at least to me) because if the reason for including French on a map is simply because it appears on a road sign, then English or French should be used for all Arab countries, since road signs are written in Arabic and English or French in all Arab countries, and indeed even in non-Arab countries whose languages ​​are not written in the Latin alphabet, such as Pakistan, India, and Afghanistan.

(A random sign in Egypt)

Secondly, your suggestion to write names in French, then Tamazight, then Arabic is completely unrealistic. Arabic is the dominant language, the de facto official language, and the language spoken by the entire population. Therefore, it should be the first language without question. Tamazight should follow, as it is an official language spoken by a large minority of Algerians (Kabyle, Chaoui, Mozabite, Tuareg, Aïn El Hammam, Aïn El Hammam, and Iznet). There is no need for French because the entire population speaks Arabic, or Arabic and Tamazight. Furthermore, the vast majority do not speak French.

Now I will present my proposal, which reflects the reality in Algeria.

First: Names of cities, villages, hamlets, and natural areas.

These should be in Arabic, followed by Tamazight (because they are the two official languages and the languages spoken by the entire Algerian people, either in one or both).

Second: Streets and public and private institutions.
For street names and public institutions such as schools and hospitals, it is acceptable to write them only in Arabic.
For private companies and factories, they should be written in Arabic, but if they are known by their French name, it is acceptable to write them in French.
For municipalities, districts, provinces, and the country itself, these should also be written in Arabic, followed by Tamazight.

If you agree with my proposal and disagree with Elias’s proposal, please vote against it.

A month and a half ago, it’s been agreed that the on the ground rule should always be prioritized in Algeria.

But some users still run a political agenda against the French and Tamazight languages. I reported the user test0022012 (who was already blocked twice in the past (1, 2)) to the DWG (Ticket #2026060810000943). Among the many things they’ve been doing:

1. Removing major nodes and ways which have been there for years simply because they had a French or Tamazight name
Some examples:
osm.org/node/999450468
osm.org/node/2597391965
osm.org/node/1022243668
osm.org/node/2592082588
osm.org/node/1024805816
osm.org/node/1001145519
osm.org/node/2597391970
osm.org/node/1035533450
osm.org/node/1081858311
osm.org/node/13898845729
osm.org/node/13891691261
osm.org/way/1524285245
osm.org/way/93313874
osm.org/way/93309562
osm.org/way/93309553

2. Never using changeset comments. Like, never ever.
I think their history speaks for itself.

3. Deleting the name:fr tag and replacing it with name:en and an approximate English translation in the name tag.
Some examples:
osm.org/way/1525336805
osm.org/way/549247635
osm.org/node/13893504041
osm.org/node/13892462674
osm.org/node/13898825245
osm.org/node/13912361282
osm.org/node/13898769788
osm.org/node/13898181378

4. Running a political manifesto and racist messages in my DMs and in changeset comments.

On May 1st, after the vote, I had received the following DM from the user:

I oppose the use of French, which I consider to be an outdated language. I am firmly against the use of French terms, believing that designations should be in Arabic and English, in accordance with international trends and the needs of future generations. This is, moreover, the direction favored by the Ministry of Education for schools and universities, public institutions, as well as for foreign companies investing in Algeria and the welcoming of tourists.

Simple, pretty straightforward message. I gently explained that OSM doesn’t map “international trends”, “the needs of future generations”, nor “the direction favored by the Ministry”, but rather the reality that’s on the ground. I also explained that changing the language of an entire population takes a whole generation, but I digress…

Yesterday, however, I received a much longer, much scarier message. It’s long so I won’t copy paste it, but in summary, the message was a complete political manifesto about how Morocco was the source of all problems in Algeria, creating discord and division, and that Algerians were chosen by God. He also went on a whole vendetta against the Kabyle people, saying they were separatists, terrorists (his words to designate their leader, Ferhat Mehenni), and that Morocco created the Standard Tamazight alphabet to support them.

They also copy pasted this manifesto on public changesets, specifically attacking a user with a Tamazight username and linking to racist Facebook reels. See this changeset, this changeset and this changeset.

In any case, we’re obviously facing a politically and religiously brainwashed racist person that hates French, hates Kabyle people, hates Amazigh people, hates Moroccans, and pretty much anybody else that doesn’t have the same opinion as them. This kind of user doesn’t have their place on OSM.

Edit: ironically, the user uses JOSM… in French.

3 Likes

Continuing the discussion from [Voting] Official tagging consensus for the name tag in Algeria:

Technical note (I am not an Algeria mapper): Semicolons are specifically supported by https://americanamap.org/ to properly split the names for rendering and may be a better choice:

  • name=Wilaya d'Alger;ⵜⴰⵡⵉⵍⴰⵢⵜ ⵏ ⴷⵣⴰⵢⵔ;ولاية الجزائر

In the absence of semicolons, the software cannot recognize that this is a multi-language name= tag. Screenshot from https://americanamap.org/#language=ber :

See also:

https://americanamap.org/#language=ar
https://americanamap.org/#language=fr

3 Likes

Hi @ilias

We do not need you to comment on the way our contributors contribute on their free time on the map of Algeria. And by the way admins on this forum and DWG have to know that you’re enforcing your own agenda.

cc @Fizzie-DWG

Just saying.

Have a nice day.

@ButterflyOfFire2 Instead of hiding on a separate forum (linked directly on your OSM Forum profile) to hurl insults and plot mass vandalism, you can address the OSM community right here. For full transparency to everyone else in this thread: this user is actively threatening to orchestrate a coordinated attack to wipe out the map of Algeria simply because he disagrees with OSM’s on-the-ground language rules. Along with xenophobic comments targeting Moroccan people, he is publicly claiming I am a paid foreign agent for trying to stop his mass deletions.
I am leaving this here so the community and the DWG can see the exact agenda driving the recent wave of vandalism.
Archived proof: https://archive.ph/53hzR
Translation:

  • “There’s an OSM forum mod in the Africa section who is obsessing over how Algerian volunteer mappers contribute. I want to tell him: fuck you on the forum. He’s not even a mapper on the Algeria map.”
  • “His goal is to disgust everyone from participating in mapping the map of Algeria by imposing strict and futile things, especially this famous bogus OSM ‘name’ tag.”
  • “While OSM does Makroute and Gazouze [pastries and soda/informal gatherings] events in Africa.”
  • “I know how this is going to end. It will end in an implosion by vandalizing the entire map of Algeria by its own contributors so that this mod can live in peace.”
  • “Besides, all it takes is one email from me for everything to disappear from the map of Algeria, and old and new contributors will answer the call en masse.”
  • “Thus, it will be a historic ban that would make the front page of OSM Weekly. For now, we wait.”
  • “Never seen an asshole like this lunatic.”
  • “Just to frame the debate, it’s at the linguistic level. Local contributors want to get rid of French through toponymy and switch to English. English, Arabic, Kabyle and variants. The principle is to abandon French. Which is a reality that is being applied little by little in Algeria. Slowly without causing a shock. This idiot moderator wants French to exist on a map he doesn’t participate in.”
  • “So he’s lobbying by poking the OSM DWG guys who are trying to see the trend and waiting, and who are more flexible compared to this asshole mod who has a personal agenda.”
  • “Give him the keys to the DWG so we can have a little laugh.”
  • “And generally these assholes are the ones who succeed. Anyway, back to basics. In any open project, I completely understand that there’s this HR aspect. Meaning we spend our time managing mentalities rather than advancing the project. Some people just love poking at futilities so that nothing moves forward and to make the atmosphere toxic.”
  • “Is there a way on OSM to not show the map of Algeria to users from Morocco? It’s a real question.”
  • “Okay from Morocco … the friends of Israel and France.”
  • “Hahahaha let him fuck off.”
  • “It’s been a long time since I followed the progress of the mapping. I remember that the map of Morocco weighed more in volume than the map of Algeria. They have reinforcements from French and foreign companies for mapping, not like us, mountain dwellers and people of the desert. Right, friend of the desert @Algebre”
  • “@Algebre @rs232 There are people close to the Moroccan Makhzen [royal establishment] mentality who are looking for problems with our contributors on OpenStreetMap.”
  • “@Algebre @rs232 We already cut off their gas and oil, right? What are they still looking for?”
  • “@Algebre @rs232 The guy in question is playing on linguistic subtleties in an approach that indicates a pro-French link. Either the guy is paid to carry out a mission which includes: - Discouraging the most active DZ [Algerian] contributors from contributing to the map of Algeria on OSM. Therefore, there is an agenda behind it.”
  • “@Algebre @rs232 He took advantage of the OSM forums migration to propose himself as a moderator for the Africa section. Before, there was the Users Algeria section that I requested. Now they put everything into one section: Africa. And his target isn’t Tunisia, Egypt, Gabon… no, he’s interested in Algeria. He is commissioned for that.”

Edit: quite ironically, you’re defending the very same user that treated your people (the Kabyle) of “separatists” and “terrorists”. This shows just how much you have no clue what’s actually going on…

2 Likes

Hi @ilias :slight_smile:

Yes my posts are publicly accessible, I’m mostly active on Mastodon (a federated and open social network) and all what I said there is my own opinion. If you have something to report you can do it on Mastodon and report my posts :slight_smile: not by bringing the discussion here where you are a “moderator”, so with some “power”, let’s say.

I’m not defending anyone and I met only few of our contributors few years ago to discuss about mapping on OSM. I gave a university talk about how to contribute on OSM at the USTHB university of Algiers.

Some of our contributors were invited by the Algerian Gendarmerie Nationale, few years ago to thank the community about their contributions before they launch their website about road incidents reporting as a public service : Request Rejected

I’m personally involved in translating OSM Web interface, ID Editor, OSMAnd … from english to kabyle language (a minority berber and amazigh language) because we try to federate people through inclusion.

Just to let you know that none can divide our community the way you’re are doing it by using words such as “Your people, the kabyle people vs others” :slight_smile: as if we are not all the same entity : algerians.

And yes, you’re an idiot the way you behave and our contributors “neither like gods, orders, no masters” from anyone especially from some Moroccan people.

We have friends from Morocco, we never interacted like that with them, we always tried to avoid conflicts with them. We actually learned from them and this “sandwich” tagging in name: was an idea that was suggested to us by some people from the community : they said, let’s do the way contributors on the Moroccan map are naming some entities. So we said, why not :slight_smile:

For your information, there were no arabic on the algerian OSM map rendering for years, it was all in latin. We were asked : are you french?

You’re are not helping the situation, you seem like you’re more involved to conduct investigations on our contributors than helping them. Why you’re not interested about Egypt, Sudan, Tunisia? Why you focus on our contributors ?

Our internal conflicts, we can solve them together, we don’t need an external mediation to find a middle solution and we don’t need especially advice coming from you @ilias

This is why, if someone wants to discuss issues about mapping in Algeria or may be organizing State of The Map in Algeria, you’ll find us on the section dedicated to Algeria; we asked to re-open the old section and I hope it will be the right decision de make.

Africa is a large continent, millions of people speaking thousands of languages, has its own specific problems even on mapping projects like this one and we don’t want to force other people what to do : we have enough issues we can solve together, little by little.

We hope you succeed as a moderator for the rest of the African section and by the way, you’re welcome on Mastodon.

Adios,

Athmane MOKRAOUI.