Name tags for brand names like "BigC", "TESCO Lotus" or "Shell"

stephankn · 2010-05-13T19:37:20.000Z

@WanTan: so after discussing forward and backward: I agree with your first post, as I did already in the second post, right? This thread was about whether to translate an Latin-character logo for the name:th tag or not, right?

Willi2006 · 2010-05-13T20:05:56.000Z

stephankn:

I suggest using the “major” writing style of the brand for name or operator without language code. That is what a company is using most prominently. For caltex this would be the name in Latin characters “CALTEX” as it’s printed like this on the big signs:
http://www.kohkaew.com/pulse%20%2841%29.JPG

May be we got it. May be that’s the root cause of our different opinions.

There is no “major” writing style on the big signs. The big signs are or contain the company logo which itself might contain letters in a special style. The logo is exactly defined by an image, legally protected and can be represented by an image only not by a character code like UTF-8. E.g. 7-Eleven has its name in the logo or “big sign”, Shell doesn’t.

In character coded text the companies adapt to the country. I mentioned already that the mall “Fairy Plaza” uses only the Thai and not the roman version in flyers. Even Mercedes-Benz does it on its Thai web pages. And I don’t think the company Mercedes-Benz is doing this because it’s aiming at less educated people who are not able to read roman letters.

stephankn · 2010-05-13T20:30:09.000Z

Willi2006:

There is no “major” writing style on the big signs. The big signs are or contain the company logo which itself might contain letters in a special style.

I was talking about the brand name. And for that there is a preferred (or as I called it major) way of writing that.
Some companies prefer to use Latin characters to represent their brand, even when there is a writing with Thai script.
See the TESCO example: They also have a way to write their brand name in Thai script, but prefer to use the TESCO variant.

Shell uses on the Thai website this heading: “Shell Thailand”. So even with the whole site written in Thai script, they did chose to have “Shell” in Latin characters.

In both examples, TESCO and Shell I would this expect in “name=”, as well as in “name:en=”.
I’m still not sure what should be in “name:th”, but I would be fine with a transcription of that name in Thai script.

Stephan

Willi2006 · 2010-05-13T21:40:04.000Z

stephankn:

Shell uses on the Thai website this heading: “Shell Thailand”.

Well, some companies are writing more in roman letters e.g. Shell Thailand where the main and other headings are in roman letters. Others are writing more in Thai letters e.g. เมอร์เซเดส-เบนซ์ ประเทศไทย (Mercedes-Benz) where even the html page title is in Thai . May be this is just pure chance or tells something about how much you care about visitors of your web presentation or about your customers in general.

In the near future even the URLs can be in Thai. Why is this introduced? I think people prefer their mother language even if they are able to talk and write in a foreign language.

WanTan · 2010-05-14T06:09:18.000Z

Willi2006:

In the near future even the URLs can be in Thai. Why is this introduced? I think people prefer their mother language even if they are able to talk and write in a foreign language.

But this is not the most important point for the decision what should go into name=. What you suggest is “tagging for the renderer”, so that the renderer do not need to choose between languages. We already have name:th= for this!

Thai people who want everything written in thai could switch to a map that uses name:th=*. Than they have the whole world in thai language (in the ideal case that the whole world is translated). Why should the thai names stop at the border of thailand? This is not really logical. Normally there will be at least parts of other countries visible on every (printed) thai map.

The name for a brand is created (given) by the company itself, like parents that choose a name=* for their child

EDIT:
But i agree in the point that we should not only look at the websites. The websites are just additional indicators for what a company uses for name=*. The quality of websites differ very much. The title-tag (title of the web-browser window) of a website may be given from the web-designer and noone told him to change it.

Much more important than the title-tags and headings in websites are the signs at the stores, used names in commercials, names on plastic bags, names in company logos and things like this.

WanTan · 2010-05-14T07:05:48.000Z

stephankn:

@WanTan: so after discussing forward and backward: I agree with your first post, as I did already in the second post, right?

Very good. Sorry that i did not realise your agreement with me until now. Until now i thought we all have three different opinions on what should go into name=*.

stephankn:

This thread was about whether to translate an Latin-character logo for the name:th tag or not, right?

No, this question is just a small part of the naming problem for brands. I started this thread as a discussion about what should go into name=, name:en= and name:th* when naming brands (e.g. supermarkets). Isn’t the title of the thread clear enough? I am sorry if the title and my first post of this thread is confusing. This was not my intention.

stephankn:

What is left for discussion is what would go into the “*:th” tag in case the name was Latin. This could be a Thai-script version of the name in case the company is using such or the same as the Latin one in case the company is not using a Thai variant for keeping the brand uniform.

Imho there should never be a latin character in name:th=* (and there should never be a thai character in name:en=). Only in name= the mapper can choose between character-sets.

I would prefer to put the transcription of the latin name written in thai letters into name:th=. For big companies there should be a transcription that is used by the company itself. In case there is not a transcription available and someone wants to fill name:th= he should make the transcription himself. But some day i hope we have a list of the most important companies in thailand where people can look to find the correct values.

Willi2006 · 2010-05-14T09:07:36.000Z

WanTan:

What you suggest is “tagging for the renderer”, so that the renderer do not need to choose between languages.

The quality of websites differ very much. The title-tag (title of the web-browser window) of a website may be given from the web-designer and noone told him to change it.

There’s a Wiki ( Tagging for the renderer) with the definiton: “Don’t deliberately tag incorrectly for the renderer.” I couldn’t see any incorrect proposal yet.

I think a company which cares will check a website before it’s published as it will do with any publication.

WanTan · 2010-05-14T10:13:34.000Z

Willi2006:

There’s a Wiki ( Tagging for the renderer) with the definiton: “Don’t deliberately tag incorrectly for the renderer.” I couldn’t see any incorrect proposal yet.

Your only motivation to put the thai name into name=* is that the thai version of the name should be rendered on “default versions of the maps”. Or am i wrong? What should be the use of this “default map version” if germans want to read german and thai-natives prefer reading in thai? Who should use this “default map”. Only www.openstreetmap.org will use it in future i guess. Everyone who wants to provide useful information will let the user decide what he wants to see on the map. And this is one of the core buisinesses of the rendering software. This is why i call your suggestion “tagging for renderers”. But we should not waste our times with discussions about terms like “tagging for renderers”. Sorry, i will try not to use it anymore

I think a company which cares will check a website before it’s published as it will do with any publication.

This is just a guess. Maybe, maybe not.

Some companies invest more into their representation on the internet, some invest less. But all invest into labeling their shops, printing advertising in newspapers and mybe in TV-commercials. If a Mercedes-Benz shop in Thailand has a big label “เมอร์เซเดส-เบนซ์” and not “Merceds-Benz” than you would be right. I do not know a Mercedes-Shop where i can go and have a look. Do you know one? Maybe Mercedes is a difficult example, because they sell “high class products”. They surely fear loosing customers and invest much money into intelligent marketing. The best “default” value for representing a store of Mercedes-Benz on a map would be a small icon with the Mercedes-Star on it.

WanTan · 2010-05-14T12:54:10.000Z

Maybe things get clearer if we get rid of the idea of “a default renderer”. We should look at name= as a kind of fallback-value which will be used if the language the map-user wants to read is not available.* The fallback values for streets in thailand surely should be the thai names of the streets. But the fallback for a supermarket like 7eleven should be the value 7eleven. Please take into account that not only thai people look at OSM-maps of Thailand. Chinese people will do, Germans do, the whole world does it.

EDIT 15.05.2010 (I try to describe it better and easy to understand.)
The name=* is very important as fallback value for users all over the world, as long as not all languages of the world are available. So we should try to put a useful value for users of the whole world in name=*.

(This rule should not be applied to streets and places of course. For streets and places the thai name should go into name=*)

Willi2006 · 2010-05-14T13:41:56.000Z

WanTan:

I do not know a Mercedes-Shop where i can go and have a look. Do you know one?

I’ve mapped one in Khon Kaen. But Mapnik and Osmarender ignore shop=car. I saw there the name in roman letters only not in Thai letters.

The ThinkNet Bangkok map shows 44 in Bangkok: near Prawet (Google).

stephankn · 2010-05-20T10:47:26.000Z

Is there any interest in having a special rendered map?

I can provide map renderings for Thailand. Currently I have a setup for rendering “default name”, “name:en” with fallback “name” and a rendering with a combined Thai-English label.

Stephan

Willi2006 · 2010-05-21T11:24:56.000Z

stephankn:

I can provide map renderings for Thailand. Currently I have a setup for rendering “default name”, “name:en” with fallback “name” and a rendering with a combined Thai-English label.

Thanks for the offer. Currently no demand from my side. I’m using the available rendered maps Mapnik and Osmarender on the internet to check my mapping only.

But I think at least the Mapnik map on the internet should be “combined” or better “bilingual” in the local language and in English. This would make the map more useable and would look more good. But currently there are different variations in different countries.

stephankn · 2010-05-21T12:19:30.000Z

Is there an easy global system to have a combined map? “name (name:en)” does not sound wise for the UK or US. But mapnik requires a single rendering rule and does not differentiate between geographic regions.
This might be preprocessed but sounds too for the main map on openstreetmap.org with it’s frequent updates.

I like more the approach of wikimedia to have renderings for the different target languages. This can take different fallback languages into account.

Stephan

Willi2006 · 2010-05-21T21:52:55.000Z

stephankn:

Is there an easy global system to have a combined map? “name (name:en)” does not sound wise for the UK or US. But mapnik requires a single rendering rule and does not differentiate between geographic regions.

May be it does not sound good but it should work. As far as I have seen these countries are using “name” only. “name:en” isn’t set.

Google maps are bilingual already, e.g. Moskau and Khon Kaen Airport.

Willi2006 · 2010-05-26T22:23:40.000Z

In OSM Wiki the “name” tag is not defined. Different countries use different approaches. This discussion shows that there are different opinions for Thailand. There’s no conclusion yet.

In this situation one user changed the name tagging of another user despite contributiing to and knowing from this discussion that the tagging by the other was explained and on purpose. This can’t be regarded as friendly act.

What’s going on: ignorance, conceitedness, demotivation, starting an edit war?

WanTan · 2010-05-27T06:57:03.000Z

Willi2006:

stephankn:

Is there an easy global system to have a combined map? “name (name:en)” does not sound wise for the UK or US. But mapnik requires a single rendering rule and does not differentiate between geographic regions.

May be it does not sound good but it should work. As far as I have seen these countries are using “name” only. “name:en” isn’t set.

Imho using “name” and “name:en” will not do it, as long as there is no clear decision to use the “local language” in the name-tag. And if this decision would be done, there would still be the problem to decide what is this “local language” for some regions.

Imho there are three (or maybe more) alternatives for bilingual maps:
1.) Tagging different in different locations. E.g. not adding name:en in the region of the USA or in regions where there “is no need for biligual writing” (e.g. Germany). This will be difficult to do in a wiki-based community like OSM. And there is e.g. the problem that in English its called “Munich” not “München”. Making exceptions in cases like this seems not practicable.

2.) Using rendering rules to let the renderer decide what has to be written to the specific geografical point. Maybe the renderer could use “is_in”-tags for this or do some calculation. This would be very flexible and powerful. But there would be the same problem e.g. with cities like Munich.

3.) Add some new tags for this problem of creating a “default bilingual map”. Something like “name:default_world” and “name:default_local”. This seems to be the cleanest solution but also the solution with the biggest effort.

In Thailand we always add the same value for streets in “name” and “name:th”. Why should we forbit the same for UK, USA, Canada, Australia, …? This will simply not work imho.

And who wants to make the decision that “English is the language of the world”? Some people will say “No, its Esperanto” others will say “No, its Chinese”.

Doesn’t Google have something like a “community based map maker tool”? Maybe we should have a look at it how they handle this problem for their map.

Willi2006:

In this situation one user changed the name tagging of another user despite contributiing to and knowing from this discussion that the tagging by the other was explained and on purpose. This can’t be regarded as friendly act.

What’s going on: ignorance, conceitedness, demotivation, starting an edit war?

I am not sure what you want to tell us. Is there a concrete problem with other users changing the name-tags of your edits?

I do not consider this thread as “closed” or “useless”. I am still thinking about the problem. But naming in general is a very big problem in OSM. The more i think about it, the bigger the problem gets

Willi2006 · 2010-05-27T08:02:34.000Z

WanTan:

But naming in general is a very big problem in OSM. The more i think about it, the bigger the problem gets

I think we are not able to solve this problem for OSM and it shouldn’t be discussed in the Thailand subforum either. Well, we are even not able to come to an agreement for Thailand.

And in this situation I can’t regard it as helpful to change the tagging of others as long as it is not wrong and is according to OSM rules but because it is not according to the own preferences.

WanTan · 2010-05-27T09:03:26.000Z

The topic of this thread is “Name tags for brand names like BigC, TESCO Lotus or Shell”. And i would like to come back to the intended topic of this thread in the further discussion.

Willi2006:

WanTan:

But naming in general is a very big problem in OSM. The more i think about it, the bigger the problem gets

I think we are not able to solve this problem for OSM and it shouldn’t be discussed in the Thailand subforum either. Well, we are even not able to come to an agreement for Thailand.

Why shouldn’t we be able to come to an agreement some day in future? We just started discussing this topic

Willi2006:

And in this situation I can’t regard it as helpful to change the tagging of others as long as it is not wrong and is according to OSM rules but because it is not according to the own preferences.

Maybe you should send a private message to the user you want to tell this.

amai · 2010-09-26T11:07:27.000Z

It took me some time to read all this thread, and unfortunately it doesn’t end up with a nice short conclusion ;-(

So what can we do to resolve?
We should agree on some principles (e.g. “in first place get data in a reasonable shape, then later look at the software client side” which is AKA “don’t tag for the renderer”) and then just get some decision. Better get some scheme which has to be revised in 2015 than having no scheme at all.

Couldn’t we write down the existing 2-3 proposals in short, and have a voting either here or in wiki? And try to get in some votes from native Thai speakers?

amai

WanTan · 2010-09-28T11:42:15.000Z

amai:

It took me some time to read all this thread, and unfortunately it doesn’t end up with a nice short conclusion ;-(

Yes, some things get more difficult the more you think and discuss about it.

amai:

So what can we do to resolve?
We should agree on some principles (e.g. “in first place get data in a reasonable shape, then later look at the software client side” which is AKA “don’t tag for the renderer”) and then just get some decision. Better get some scheme which has to be revised in 2015 than having no scheme at all.

Couldn’t we write down the existing 2-3 proposals in short, and have a voting either here or in wiki? And try to get in some votes from native Thai speakers

Yes, it would be nice to come to an conclusion, at least for the most important things. Maybe you could help to push it a bit. What is your opinion after reading this thread?

I am still hoping for a solution like this eventually in future (see Post #5):
“The best solution for tagging brand names would be a centralized database for brand names, where the renderers could request the names by sending an ID for a brand and select from the available translations for this ID. Or there should be something like a “name reference”. The current system is redundant.”
But this would require big changes in the OSM database scheme.