Hi all, I’m trying to figure out how to properly tag a racetrack including names and turn numbers. There doesn’t seem to be an established convention on how to handle this. The racetrack I want to tag has numbered turns in named sections in the track. It would be desirable for both the turn numbers and the names of each section to be visible.
Simply using the ref tag doesn’t show the numbers. For sections of track that have given names the name tag isn’t an option to the turn numbers because it’s already being used. Using the locale tag did show up properly but seems like it might be improper use of the tag? From what I understand it’s meant to be a catch-all for locations of interest.
To carry over some of the comments I made on Discord:
Common practice for mapping circuits is (where corner/straight names exist), they can be added as name= to the individual sections of highway=raceway. The whole circuit complex should be enclosed in a leisure=sports_centre + sport=motor. Where different configurations of circuit exist, a type=circuit relation has been used e.g. Relation: Silverstone Grand Prix (51160) | OpenStreetMap. As I also suggested, the turn numbers can vary depending on which configuration is in use. For example, at Silverstone, the National layout uses a different start line to the Grand Prix circuit, so turn 1 is different. It may be possible to use the ‘role’ field in the circuit relations to assign a turn number to the corners depending on which configuration is in use. As @AAA_AAA_AAA suggested, the track in the above screenshot has fixed corner numbers so isn’t a concern here.
I do not think place=locality is being used correctly to mark a corner of a race circuit. In my mind, it should be used for geographic features or areas. The fact that the corners (especially on the Nürburgring are already named, makes it seem duplicative to have an additional node for each corner. Seems in violation of one feature, one element. Tagging for the renderer also springs to mind, we shouldn’t be motivated by trying to force corner numbers to appear on Carto. I suggested adding ref= to the corners where the numbers are fixed, @diamondarmorsteve suggested that a new tag akin to ref:turn= be created. Maybe I would propose a tag that includes ‘raceway’ in it.
I also think the Nürburgring using route=road is incorrect - it’s not really a public highway in the sense of a normal road route relation & that route=circuit or similar would be better.
I looked at the Nürburgring, Silverstone, Laguna Seca, and Portland International Raceway. Nobody seems to have gone about adding turn numbers, but as @LordGarySugar points out not all tracks have fixed numbers.
WRT the place=locality tag from what I see in the wiki it’s meant to be cover anything that falls outside of existing tags. The only other way I could see this working is working with carto + the other renderers to show dedicated raceway turn number tags when enclosed in the right area.
You could use that argument for anything that has a name. A hospital. A mountain. A house. None of those are place=locality. If we already have a named highway=raceway segment representing the corner, a separate node is totally unnecessary.
This is why we need to create a dedicated tag then. If I want to look for all corner numbers or names on OSM, having them all tagged as place=locality is pretty useless.
Looking at the place=locality around the Nürburgring - these were all added approx 17 years ago. It’s possible that raceways or named raceways were not rendered at this time so it was an attempt to get the names rendered. Now that the corner names are all present on the raceway segments, I think it makes sense to remove this ancient hacky mapping.
Agreed, it would be nice to use proper tagging. I’ve started adding a few to ORP. I’ve added raceway=paddock to the paddocks. Before going farther how can we go about getting proper support added in the project for more granular motorsport tag features?
EDIT:
Just noting some ideas for tags that were being discussed on discord: raceway=paddock raceway=garage raceway=pitlane raceway=kerb raceway=pregrid or raceway=staging raceway=trap (for gravel or other energy absorbing traps) raceway=turn (for noting turn numbers) raceway=chicane raceway=fuel (racetracks frequently have dedicated fuel stations that aren’t public gas stations) raceway=tower (something for marshall observation towers)
Naming sections of tracks accurately is an interesting challenge. Tracks can be composed of multiple loops that can be connected in different ways. Specific sections of the track can have given names, then there are turn numbers on top of that.
Interesting how the corner_number tag isn’t showing up under the raceway key list. I like raceway:corner_number=X, it’s a more descriptive tag name than turn.
I also like raceway=marshall_post, more flexible to cover different types of observation structures.
When it comes to making up a ‘new’ tagging scheme like this do we need to get broader involvement ahead of time? Or should we just write down the structure, try it out, and wait to see if anyone complains?
The best way to use ATYL (Any Tag You Like) is, of course, when you have a data consumer in mind that wants the data to be present somehow - that can inform the tagging discussions to cut off unproductive avenues that result in the data present nowhere. It results in the best incarnations of “just try it out” because you have an actual feedback loop.
Right now the main motivation is to just get the track and all the nice details documented and rendered. So I guess I need to find someone to talk to at carto?
I would not focus too much on this. It is a strong temptation but outright limiting yourself to something shown in specific renderer can result in Tagging for the renderer - OpenStreetMap Wiki
Two points on this. The Carto devs will only consider rendering new tags unless they have 5000-10000 uses worldwide. But even if they do reach 10,000 uses, they won’t add rendering support anyway.
We should focus on coming up with good tags and mapping lots first before considering rendering. As @campbelltree says a custom renderer will be the only realistic scenario to render corner numbers, kerbs, runoff areas etc.
There’s no reason why we can’t start mapping worldwide with new tags immediately. The benefit of an official vote for approval means increased scrutiny can help correct any oversights, and would inform more people of the tags and encourage them to use them in their local mapping.
There is one existing tag that I think should be addressed: raceway=pitlane. This has 48 uses compared to 12 for raceway=pit_lane. I think the less popular raceway=pit_lane is the more correct tag going by OSM conventions (using an underscore for two word tags.) If others here agree pit_lane is better, I wouldn’t think an official vote is needed to allow the merging of these two tags. Of course it would be sensible to leave a CS comment for anyone that has used the deprecated tag so they can use the correct one going forwards.
