I wanted to start a discussion on how to map Mediterranean bars. They are almost ubiquitous in Southern Europe, and they are places where people socialize while drinking a beer with colleagues, have a coffee with pastry for breakfast, grab a quick afternoon bite (tapas, aperitivo, …), and in some cases even buy tobacco and other products.
However, in the English version of amenity=bar, it is suggested that even when being a different concept to bars elsewhere in the world, they should be mapped with the same tagging. This explanation is not present in the Italian version, and people are directed to cafés instead. And I agree with this: bars in other countries and bars in Mediterranean countries have in common the name and the fact that there is a bar where you can buy alcoholic drinks. But the atmospheres are very different, and I think it’s wrong to map them the same way. Alcoholic drinks, while available in Mediterranean bars, are not the focus, and the atmosphere is relaxed and social. Food is also important in Mediterranean bars.
I want to start the discussion to see if we can find a way to map them, or if we should change the text in the amenity=bar wiki article, so mappers don’t use that tag for Mediterranean bars.
I agree the English version is not helpful. It has a long description of how Mediterranean bars are different, but doesn’t state clearly what that means for tagging. The phrase “although this doesn’t necessarily mean the tag should be applied differently” fails to clearly come down on one side or the other - the word “necessarily” suggests “maybe it means this, maybe it doesn’t”.
I suppose the question is what to replace it with to allow for different approaches across Southern Europe - maybe something generic like “These establishments are not usually tagged as amenity=bar. They may be mapped as amenity=cafe or amenity=pub depending on the region”.
I’m not sure if you are also proposing to reopen the question of how to tag these in Spain. For what it’s worth, they usually feel more like cafes than pubs to me (e.g. few pubs in Ireland, where I am from, open for breakfast). I do try to remember the current guideline to tag as pub, but in the common situation where they advertise themselves as both Bar and Cafe, I tend to opt for cafe.
Just for the record: in Spain there are also amenity=cafe, is not about to choose one or another.
amenity=cafe: it opens early mornings, usually serves cafe (at that time). Food is lean to be sweet, rather than salty. Closing times between 6pm-9pm, roughly. amenity=pub: open later, around noon, usually serves low-alcoholic beverages or sodas. You can go for lunch, like tapas. Closes after dinners, up to midnight tops. amenity=bar: it opens during the evenings, until late, past midnight and beyond. No food inside, mainly spirits.
One possibility is “(although this doesn’t necessarily mean the tag should be applied differently)” meaning the opposite of your interpretation. It may suggest =bar should be used for those similar to elsewhere, and shouldn’t be used for Mediterranean Bars. Anyway, it does need to be reworded and clarified.
In general, cafe-bar are common. =cafe + bar=yes can be used for those.
Here, the food and atmosphere do cause =pub to be considered. cafe=yes is more common elsewhere. pub=yes | Tags | OpenStreetMap Taginfo
But =cafe + pub=yes would follow =cafe + bar=yes
in Italy, many “italian bars” are mapped as amenity=bar, despite the “consensus” documented in the wiki. There is actually a significant difference between a cafe and a bar, in a bar many customers stand (there may be also some tables, but it is not a requirement), while in a cafe you typically sit, unless it also has a bar (pubs typically have a bar as well, with stools).
There is a huge range what a bar can look like, when it opens and what kind of drinks it specializes in. Commonly, they will have a big coffee machine. The majority opens early in the morning and stays open till the evening, at least in cities, some are open at night. In the morning, people go there for breakfast (some kind of coffee and some kind of cornetto, typically).
In Greece, we have several businesses which describe themselves as “cafe-bar” (not to mention the ones which also describe them as “restaurant-cafe-bar”). We don’t have a clear consensus yet on to how to tag such places, but usually we tag the amenity key based on what they are most known for.
Sure it needs some rework, because as I mentioned above, there are quite many places all over Greece which combine characteristics even of all 3 types of “restaurant”, “cafe” and “bar”.
The same here, combinations are frequent, any combination of restaurant, cafe, bar and also sometimes one or more of pastry/pizza/icecream/tobacco etc.
