This topic discussed it Melbourne Tram's, TramTracker IDs - #5 by JohnSmith but it is long dormant.
Each direction has a separate ID, so it makes sense to tie it to stop position rather than platform (some of which can be bidirectional).
I was thinking of adding it with a tag along the lines of ref:tramtracker=*.
Thoughts?
Link posted to Discord Oceania: Discord
as someone unfamiliar with these datasets, could you please share why ref:tramtracker is proposed instead of the standard ref tag?
Sure.
The ref tag refers to the number from the stop name and isn’t necessarily unique to the stop except when combined with the route and the direction. There are many stops starting with, for instance, Stop 5 (which would all have a ref of 5.)
However, each stop has a unique 4-digit ID assigned by Yarra Trams (and that is used in the passenger-facing app tramTRACKER).
Where are you getting the info from, or is it covered under one of our existing waivers?
I’m not familiar with the transit network there but what about local_ref? For example https://transport.vic.gov.au/stop/2283/graham-stvictoria-ave-31/1/tram shows #31 and Stop ID 18662. I would think that the Stop ID 18662 would be the ref as the network wide stop identifier, then you’d use local_ref for another ref that isn’t unique across the whole network.
Do you have specific examples you could share?
tramTRACKER IDs are published in physical form on every tram stop and digitally in the app, and also made available by Yarra Trams via an API.
That Stop ID is the Department of Transport and Planning’s (DTP) number, although it does map 1:1 to Yarra Trams’ tramTRACKER IDs. For completeness, it would be best to have both. The tramTRACKER ID is the more public facing of the two.
In that case would the DTF Stop ID best go in one of the GTFS ID fields GTFS - OpenStreetMap Wiki ? We should check if that matches the GTFS ids or not.
Either way I think non-network wide IDs work better in local_ref and network wide IDs work in ref. If we need something like ref:tramtracker so be it, but I’d like to see if it can be fit into one of the ref fields first.
The DTP ID is published in the stops.txt file in GTFS:
So, the preferred option would be to populate ref with the DTP ID, replacing the existing ref which at the moment is this:
name=Stop 31: Graham Street
network=PTV - Metropolitan Trams
network:wikidata=Q7257648
operator=Keolis Downer
operator:wikidata=Q6328065
public_transport=stop_position
railway=tram_stop
ref=31
tram=yes
wheelchair=no
… and then use local_ref to store the tramTRACKER IDs?
This is a big change that I wouldn’t do without community consent, of course.
(The above tag copy/paste brings up another point: Keolis Downer are no longer the operators. Yarra Journey Makers [made up of a JV between Transdev and John Holland] have been the operators since Dec 2024. Most operator tags say Keolis Downer, some say Yarra Trams. The trade name has carried over franchises.)
For example
Has a DTP Stop ID of 18662 which is also the GTFS Stop ID, the signposted stop number is 31, and the tramTRACKER number is 1241.
Who we are - Yarra Trams says “Yarra Trams is proudly operated by Yarra Journey Makers, a joint venture between Transdev Australia and John Holland.” as the private operator.
I’m not sure how these values should be represented, it should be up to Melbourne local mappers to decide. I think either doing local_ref=31, ref=1241 and gtfs:stop_id=18662 is okay, or doing ref=31, gtfs:stop_id=18662 and ref:AU-VIC:tramtracker=1241 is also okay, but more leaning to the latter. ref is then used for the most visible signposted identifier, the GTFS ref is under the gtfs: scheme and the tramTRACKER ref really only being used for the tramTRACKER app would be best under it’s own ref namespace.
Quick question: are you getting this info by referring to multiple sources? For instance I can’t see the DTP/GTFS ID on the https://transport.vic.gov.au/stop/2283/graham-stvictoria-ave-31/1/tram#StopPage:::datetime=2026-04-12T20%3A09%3A20.861Z&directionId=-1&showAllDay=false&_auth=649dd4244bcef5938e3960cc85d103982f7da6d49f1fefe1c1e0795f79c6bdf0 page. Thanks in advance!
Thanks, but https://yarratrams.com.au/terms-conditions says:
“Unless otherwise indicated, all information contained in this web site is copyright © Yarra Journey Makers Pty Ltd trading as Yarra Trams. All rights reserved. Apart from any use permitted under the Copyright Act 1968, you must not copy, frame, modify, transmit or distribute the material at this site without the consent of the copyright owner.”
Have you asked for permission to copy their info?
They would only be permitted to use those physically surveyed from signage.
Press the (i) info button.
If it can be validated that Keolis Downer → Yarra Journey Makers would be correct, ie. nothing left operated by Keolis Downer and it’s an exact 1:1 mapping, then we could do a mass tag update.
I have photos of all tram stops signs.
D’oh! Missed it - thanks!
The franchise and everything with it went from KD to YJM in Dec 2024.
I will ask their permission and report back when I have an answer.
If you’ve taken photos of all the tram stop signs and they show the tramTRACKER number then you could add them from your survey photos directly.
Have you formed a view of what you think the ref tagging should be?
I’m concerned about breaking any downstream applications that might rely on the tagging as it is, although that’s pretty hard to judge. I’m looking at other instances around the world. Not going to rush into this!