There was a debate in the Hungarian community about when to use the old_name:de and name:de tags on Hungarian cities, and we agreed that this should be decided by German speakers, not by us.
It’s clear, where no German minority lives anymore, we should use the old_name:de tags. For example Szolnok, its historical German name is Sollnock, it should be moved to old_name:de tag, as you won’t find that name anywhere on the streets, and current German speakers shouldn’t be familiar with this name.
By comparison Hungarian Wikipedia and Wikidata both uses the Hungarian names of Austrian cities, e.g. Wien/Bécs, even where it’s just literally translated like Bécsújhely/Wiener Neustadt
What should we do with cities like this? Should we follow the Wikipedia convention and put Ödenburg in alt_name:de or something similar? Or we shouldn’t care why wiki editors use the Hungarian name as default, and use the name:de when the city name is displayed on signs?
As someone who lives near the “Ödenburger Bundesstraße”, for a long time I didn’t even realize that this road leads to Sopron and that “Ödenburg” is the German name for it. Maybe that’s just me, but in my perception nowadays everybody calls it Sopron here. Nevertheless, if it’s still signed, I’m also not sure if it’s appropriate to use old_name.
I’d say ignore the german Wikipedia for such things. My impression is editors there give more importance to the official non-german name than OSM should.
If you had asked people from near the baltic and northern sea coast, they likely would rather put all these names in old_name.
On the other hand, some of my relatives near Czechia use the german names of cities there frequently, even if not signed at all.
That’s what I agree with the most, maybe with a source:name:de = sign for clarification, so they aren’t removed like here.
For other places reg_name:de could be a solution.
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Mammi71
(One feature, Six mappers and still More ways to map it)
4
Google Trends can provide a possible first indicator of whether a term (name) is used in a particular language. However, the result should not be regarded as the absolute and only truth, but only as a strong indication.
If an exonym is no longer used but can be historically proven, it should rather be found in old_name=*. If the exonym is still used, then it should be in name:xy=, in this case name:de. It is also in ‘use’ - completely independent of Google Trends - also when it appears on local signs.
Checked some names on G Trends, and the Hungarian names’ usage are at least 80-90% usually. One notable exception is Győr/Raab, but I guess it’s because of the river Rába/Raab.
So from this point of view German Wikipedia is right, and these names should be saved in alt_name:de or reg_name:de. I wouldn’t put them in old_name:de if they are still visible on signs.
Mammi71
(One feature, Six mappers and still More ways to map it)
6
If the use of the Hungarian name only accounts for 80-90%, then I think name:de is still justified. I see no reason for alt_name:de or reg_name:de. If the German name is still displayed on local signs, it is also name:de. It is only old_name if it is no longer used today, but is historically justified and remains searchable and findable with old_name.
Bratislava was renamed by a user who has few edits in German speaking countries and mostly works in the Middle East, so I guess that should be reverted: Changeset: 126952380 | OpenStreetMap
Next step is to move the names to their correct tag.
Mammi71
(One feature, Six mappers and still More ways to map it)
10
I don’t know what it’s like in Austria, especially Vienna, which is very close to Bratislava. But in Germany, Bratislava Preßburg is almost no longer in use. In fact, only the German Foreign Ministry still uses the name Bratislava Preßburg (and increasingly less so). Kiev/Kyiv was also much quicker to accommodate the sensitivities of the host country.
No, you no longer have to change name:de=Bratislava and old_name=Preßburg. Preßburg it’s just the name of the embassy, so to speak , no longer the name of the city. My opinion!
This has nothing to do with Hungary either …
These names were definitely used in old maps, and Hungary traditionally have used German names/words for various definitions. (Example: some of the modern scientific grade etymological dictionaries use German words to differentiate ambigious Hungarian entities.)
(Infeeeee: think of the old military survey maps.)
Never heard anyone saying “Preßburg” to “Bratislava”, to be honest.
Funny enough, there is an Standard-Article that mentions exaclty this
In Österreich etwa wird die tschechische Hauptstadt fast immer Prag und nicht Praha genannt, während die nur 50 Kilometer von Wien entfernte Hauptstadt der Slowakei für die meisten Menschen Bratislava heißt und nicht Pressburg.
The article also mentions that the rules for how to write city-names is never easy
In Österreich etwa wird die tschechische Hauptstadt fast immer Prag und nicht Praha genannt, während die nur 50 Kilometer von Wien entfernte Hauptstadt der Slowakei für die meisten Menschen Bratislava heißt und nicht Pressburg.
It says: Most people say Bratislava. Not since yesterday. I bought a train ticket to there thirty years ago. Same with Sopron and Ljubljana. The last perhaps remembered in Austria because a Slovenian band called Laibach covered a song by an Austrian band called Opus.
The first mention of the city (by the Hungarian Establishing charter of the abbey of Pannonhalma, 1002 CE) was as Pozsony (it’s Hungarian name), which probably originated from a person’s name living there before 950 CE.
It is believed to be morphed from Poson through various names (Praslavia, Praslaburck, Prešporok, Prešpurk) to the German Preßburg, which was his official name in Austria-Hungary and German areas, since after 1526.
After WW1 and the dissolution of Austria-Hungary various name changes were proposed, mainly to distance from the German Preßburg and Hungarian Pozsony, and after a short-lived idea of calling it Wilsonov they have settled on Bratislava, which supposedly referred to Braslav’s Castle (with a twist of unintentionally mistyping the name as Bratislav) a medieval settlement whose exact location is debated, but it sounded slavic enough to be a fine part of Chechslovakia.
So, it is quite possible that you, unless you have lived through the age of KuK Franz Josef have not heard the name.
, no longer the name of the city. My opinion!
