one more option is to retag them, if one of values is clearly superior (not convinced that it is happening here)
I thought we weren’t supposed to bulk re-tag items.
If we do, it’s probably easier to retag the 45 gas_bottles to gas, than the 400 gas to gas_bottles though.
not without discussion, not without agreement that such retagging makes sense
but it can be done
both are trivial to do, question is whether less popular term is much, much better (probably not?)
This should be related to Talk:Tag:vending=fuel - OpenStreetMap Wiki (which has further confusion as used as
man_made=fuel_pump) . I personally don’t feel
vending=fuel should be limited to vehicle fuels.
The whole area of tagging for “non-commercial/public use fuel gas” appears to unreliable, and could do with some research, discussion, and creation of a useful tag and advice.
The vending=* is not really contentious . I believe issue is the difference between “gas” and “gas_bottles”. They may not mean the same thing. There may be no gas in the gas_bottles on sale.
The wiki for vending=gas_bottles shows what I’d describe as “Gas Cylinders” (two hands needs to carry very short distance(a few metres))
A smaller container could be a “Gas Bottle”. (small container that could be easily moved)
Then there is the much smaller containers of “Camping Gas”. (can be put into personal bag)
I dot not like the tag of vending=gas because because “gas” has so many possible meanings. There are a huge range of gases that can be bought in bottles (propane, butane, oxygen, etc). For OSM I suggest it’s helpful to try and separate tagging initially based on dominant usage type. Then tag the specific gases on sale.
As a very quickly thought suggestion. I would suggest
vending=heating_gas (for cylinders & bottles. Heating gas is generally propane or butane)
vending=industrial_gas (for the very unlikely situation where you can buy a bottle of a gas such as oxygen from a vending=*)
vending=camping_gas (for containers than can be put into a bag)
If we do, it’s probably easier to retag the 45 gas_bottles to gas, than the 400 gas to gas_bottles though
from a semantic point of view, do they sell gas bottles or do they sell bottled gas (and you pay a deposit for the bottle you get back when you return it)? Or is both possible and we should distinguish it?
completely agree, gas is not describing a substance if we are aiming at describing the whole world, there are lots of different gases on sale, also helium for example (balloons). We already have more specific gas tags for fuel tagging and just using „gas“ feels like a step backward, not thought through.
Could “Gas Cylinder” vs “Gas Bottle” be a UK vs US thing? If yes, which spelling do we usually go with for tags?
Also, I’m aware that calling burnable gases just “gas” is imprecise, but it’s an established name that people have been using for more than a century. If you go into a store and ask for a “gas bottle” they probably won’t ask you what gas you mean, they know you want one of those short-chain hydrocarbon mixes.
Making the tag here something more specific like vending=propane_gas_bottles or so probably just invites more discussion about what to do if a store sells butane or methane instead.
You can buy a bottle for the price of the bottle+gas, or you can return an empty bottle and get a full one in return for the price of only the gas.
Also, I’m aware that calling burnable gases just “gas” is imprecise, but it’s an established name that people have been using for more than a century.
if the tag was burnable_gas I would be fine with it although it wouldn’t be as precise as butane, propane, cng, or lpg
If you go into a store and ask for a “gas bottle” they probably won’t ask you what gas you mean, they know you want one of those short-chain hydrocarbon mixes.
this depends on the kind of store though. It depends on the context whether the other person understands which kind of gas you are interested in buying, and whether this is burnable gas / short hydrocarbon chains, vending=gas by itself doesn’t work well because the context is not there. As this is still low usage we should rather recommend something better.
you can only return bottles you bought there or any bottle? Because usually there is an issue with safety checks and certifications and they only take “their own” bottles back (or their “network” sometimes), but maybe the situation is different elsewhere?
Do any of these actually refill bottles? I’ve not heard of vending machines that do this, but I’ve heard of it for staffed places.
Great point. Refilling pressurized containers is dangerous and I don’t think I’ve ever seen that done in an automated way at a vending machine. These things vend the vessel (bottle, cylinder, etc.) that has gas within it, although some may even sell empty vessels too. For that reason,
vending=gas_bottles makes sense to me semantically.
And you’re well on your way @Taktaal with this thread.
Here’s an example of what you can buy in a vending machine in Estonia
Here’s another one
Are those “bottles”?
Realistically, there is only one kind of gas containers (propane gas cylinders) that is sold in vending machines, so we should not overengineer the whole stuff:
vending=gas is already in widespread use, and is not ambiguous, so let’s just stick to it. I’m not aware of vending machines specifically for camping gas, but if one exists we can consider it.
However, we should also take into account
shop key. How do we tag shops that sell propane cylinders, as opposed to those selling industrial gas (Messer/Linde/BASF)? Whichever value of
shop=) is accepted for the former, should be used for
vending as well.
Realistically, there is only one kind of gas containers (propane gas cylinders) that is sold in vending machines
In Hallstatt you can find vending machines that sell “Air from Hallstatt”. As far as I checked, it seems to actually exist ( No Kangaroos in Austria )
I am pretty sure there are vending machines somewhere selling
campingaz cartridges, and would suggest to already contemplate the
possibility even if we do not have a concrete example yet.
I’m have a memory of a vending machine selling camping gas (very small containers with approx 20/80 mix of butane/propane). Not to be confused with Campingaz which is a brand of Camping Gas.
Not to be confused with Campingaz which is a brand of Camping Gas.
yes, it’s a brand who also defined the standards for these small camping gas containers, it’s originally French but now owned by Coleman (actually for decades)
So there is currently zero instances of vending=gas_cylinders or shop=gas_cylinders in OSM. But there are over 10,000 shop=gas mapped, mostly in France. There are also zero shop=gas_bottles.
So going from there, maybe vending=gas would be the most sensible tag?