Feature Proposal - RFC - "scooter" type (electric) vehicles

mueschel · 2022-11-20T10:48:58.374Z

I’d like to come back to a proposal I wrote already a while ago and which already had quite some discussion back then.
In 2020 we accepted new keys for electric bicycles: electric_bicycle and speed_pedelec. small_electric_vehicle got to be used in the meantime as well. At that point we didn’t touch a problem with the existing tag scooter: The word is very ambiguous and used for very different kinds of vehicles. Discussion showed that mappers interpret the tag in different ways and some are not aware that there is some ambiguity at all. The tag is promoted by a editor preset for charging stations, but not used in other context.

So, I’d like to bring this proposal back to your attention: Proposed features/ElectricScooters - OpenStreetMap Wiki
Please feel free to comment either here or on the Wiki page. (I’d like to collect all issues raised here on the Wiki page)

To summarize:
This proposal defines the tags:

kick_scooter=*
small_electric_vehicle=*
mobility_scooter=*
electric_moped=*
electric_mofa=*

This proposal deprecates the tags:

scooter=* (because of ambiguity)

Discostu36 · 2022-11-20T11:00:03.304Z

Thank you for re-activating this important proposal. In my opinion, you should leave out the parking problem. How to tag parking amenities for these vehicle types should be tackled in a separate proposal.

Fizzie41 · 2022-11-20T23:12:10.502Z

mueschel:

The word is very ambiguous and used for very different kinds of vehicles

Indeed!

Where I am, the Government has just introduced new laws concerning the use of “personal mobility devices”, including e-scooters, e-skateboards, self-balancing single wheeled devices (like e-unicycles and e-boards), Segways & similar Rules for personal mobility devices | Transport and motoring | Queensland Government; as opposed to “motorised mobility devices” such as mobility scooters or motorised wheelchairs https://www.qld.gov.au/transport/safety/rules/wheeled-devices/rules-for-motorised-mobility-device-use; and “wheeled recreational devices”(https://www.qld.gov.au/transport/safety/rules/wheeled-devices/skateboards) such as skateboards, roller skates and foot scooters.

Don’t know if those terms help, or make it even more difficult‽

kubahahaha · 2022-11-21T17:43:49.495Z

As about legal status - here in Poland we have:

bikes and electric bikes;
Movement assist device (no engine, eg. kick_scooter) - “urządzenie wspomagające ruch”;
Personal transport devices (engine, speed limited to 25km/h, 1-person, no seating nor pedals, eg. small_electric_vehicle) - “urządzenie transportu osobistego”.

Mobility scooter would be considered as pedestrian in polish law.
I agree we also need parking proposal.

mueschel · 2022-11-30T18:29:48.010Z

I’d like to ask for some opinions on the precise tag for small motorcycle-like vehicles.
Which one should we use?

electric_moped and electric_mofa
moped:electric and mofa:electric

In the Wiki @Elefant_aus_Wuppertal argued in favor of the version with underscore, but I also heard the opposite argument by @Herrieman, that the version with a colon makes it clearer that it is indeed a subtype of mofa/moped…

Herrieman · 2022-11-30T18:37:36.374Z

Thanks for tagging me here! Didn’t notice this topic earlier.

I will explain quickly why I opted for moped:electric and mofa:electric, as I did earlier to @mueschel personally: *

I opted for mofa:electric to better indicate that it is a further specification of mofas. I.e. an electric mofa is not allowed with mofa=no, unless mofa:electric=yes. And vice versa; on access=no but mofa=yes, electric mofas are allowed. I didn’t think of this myself by the way, as it was discussed on the Dutch forum last year: G13 en elektrische mofa's - Nederland (Netherlands) - OpenStreetMap Community Forum

* If the consensus is to use the underscore variant, I will of course switch.

However, given electric_bicycle, using electric_* seems more in line. Although, mofas and mopeds have always been motorised, just not with an electric motor… In other words, an electric bicycle is way more different from a ‘normal’ bicycle, than an electric moped from a moped with an ice.

Discostu36 · 2022-11-30T18:38:50.761Z

As the keys small_electric_vehicle, electric_vehicle, electric_bicycle, electric_car and electric_wheelchair are already in use and more common than the colon counterparts, I think it makes sense to keep using underscores.

Herrieman · 2023-01-20T21:08:21.005Z

Hey @mueschel, what’s the status right now? Need any help? I think that the wiki page for the proposal needs some cleaning up, but other than that, it’s ready. The electric_* tags are consistent with other uses, as @Discostu36 mentioned.

Kovoschiz · 2023-01-21T04:51:03.654Z

As I would say before, I don’t find using an electric_*= for every vehicle scalable. What do they include anyway. PHEV? Range-extended? All-electric? Fuel cell? All battery? It’s fine on non-road vehicles, as they are non-engined, and almost all will use battery; while usage on road vehicles is not be a strong justification.
I cobbled up Proposed features/Vehicle emission and energy source - OpenStreetMap Wiki before in response to a question on type=low_emission_zone. It’s not pretty yet, but attempts to technology-neutral. There needs to be a comprehensive solution for them, and the implication is broad on sub-modes for access=. Already from the question is an example where all-battery and PHEV have to be pay a different amount.
Besides *:conditional=* @ (fuel=electric) (or fuel:electric ) can also be found as I discuss, which strangely appears to be from fuel=electric on amenity=bbq It has the advantage of fitting into fuel= for =petrol and =diesel. There are quite a lot *:conditional=* @ (fuel=diesel) already considering the relative occurance of them mostly together with emissions. A dozen for petrol. There are questions and issues from UK Clean Air Zones? - OSM Help and Emissions restriction · Issue #16218 · osmandapp/OsmAnd · GitHub this week, so there is some continued attention and relevance.

mueschel · 2023-01-21T10:02:40.432Z

Kovoschiz:

As I would say before, I don’t find using an electric_*= for every vehicle scalable. What do they include anyway.

I fully agree that we need something else when it comes to fuel-related restrictions. Using a conditional like you propose is likely the only viable solution. I also stated something like this in the proposal, that this scheme should be restricted to moped-sized vehicles and below, but not extended to all vehicle types.
For those small vehicles, I really see them as different types much more than e.g. the difference between an electric and a fossile fueled car.

mueschel · 2023-01-21T10:07:19.879Z

@Herrieman If you have ideas for improving the proposal page, please feel free to make suggestions or implement some changes directly.