Entrance=staircase issues (initially was: New tag idea: entrance=unclassifiable (or other way of marking that entrance=yes is not really assignable to more specific entrance categories))

[Nadjita]

I guess we can agree that the wiki needs a bit more clarification and examples. For example, I was under the impression that for an apartment-block, the “main” entrance would be entrance=main, but nowadays, I more or less just tag it with entrance=staircase. But I wouldn’t consider any of them “wrong”. The main entrance might very well lead to staircases, right? It would really help having defined examples and guidelines what’s used for what, because right now, I always have the feeling I’m picking the wrong one

[Tordanik (Tobias Knerr)]

The only entrance values which were in the original, approved proposal are yes, main, service, exit, and emergency.

In particular, the key was not intended to to contain information about what the entrance leads to (a shop, a home, …). These are all later additions which I believe degrade the logic of the key and should not have been allowed to be added.

The situation of “how do I map the main entrance to a home” could easily have been avoided, for example by introducing a second entrance_to key. (And in many cases, this information is already implied by the tags of the building the entrance node belongs to, so it doesn’t need to be tagged anyway.)

[Mateusz_Konieczny]

People started using entrance=staircase as apartment building may have for example 7 entrances, each to staircase going through all levels.

Calling such entrance “main” seems weird and incorrect, to the point that people invented new tagging.

[Matija_Nalis]

@Mateusz_Konieczny

People started using entrance=staircase as apartment building may have for example 7 entrances, each to staircase going through all levels.

So each of 7 entrances leads to the same set of apartments? Or each staircase to different set?

I still don’t know what is really meant by entrance=staircase, see my questions above. What they mean to you?

@Mateusz_Konieczny

Calling such entrance “main” seems weird and incorrect, to the point that people invented new tagging.

Hmmmm, to me it seems normal usage in English (but I’m not native speaker).
Do you mean it sounds strange because there are multiple main values, or something else?

It looks to me it is OK usage, e.g. MAIN Definition & Usage Examples | Dictionary.com says:

adjective

chief in size, extent, or importance; principal; leading:
the company’s main office;
the main features of a plan.

So if there can be “(multiple) main features”, then there can also be “(multiple) main entrances”, right?

[IanH]

The only reason to have multiple main entrances is because they all lead to same common area. For example some large building with a large front desk area. On the outer edge there are usually stairs and banks of elevators that allow access to the rest of the building. The area is often large enough to occupy most of the ground floor. Whether reachable via hallways or not. It is accessible from multiple sides of the building.

[Mammi71]

@Mateusz_Konieczny

People started using entrance=staircase as apartment building may have for example 7 entrances, each to staircase going through all levels.

I can imagine a large apartment building that has seven entrances.
However, it is difficult for me to imagine that all entrances have the same house number and that all flats are equally accessible via all entrances.
Isn’t it much more the case that each of these entrances has its own house number and therefore each entrance can be an entrance=main?

Why should this be wired and incorrect?

[dieterdreist]

I can imagine a large apartment building that has seven entrances.
However, it is difficult for me to imagine that all entrances have the same house number and that all flats are equally accessible via all entrances.

both situations exist, entrances which lead to a single staircase and no internal connections or common connections inside a building.

The latter is typical for higher buildings as fire regulations usually require 2 different escape routes, and in lower buildings the second route can be through the windows and fire department ladders while high-rise buildings usually require additional staircases (and entrances).

Isn’t it much more the case that each of these entrances has its own house number and therefore each entrance can be an entrance=main?

house numbers are not necessarily related to entrances, it depends on the area/region. A distinct house number doesn’t generally imply it is a main entrance.

[Mateusz_Konieczny]

@Mammi71

However, it is difficult for me to imagine that all entrances have the same house number and that all flats are equally accessible via all entrances.
Isn’t it much more the case that each of these entrances has its own house number and therefore each entrance can be an entrance=main?

In Poland it is typical that building has a single house number, multiple entrances and each of entrances leading to a separate set of apartments.

See say Way: 155371285 | OpenStreetMap

There may be connection between staircases but often is not typically used.

numbers displayed on entrances show ranges of apartments accessible through a given entrance (top-left entrance had its sign missing so data is missing for now).

Calling every single out of this six entrances a main one seems a bit weird to me.

@Matija_Nalis

So each of 7 entrances leads to the same set of apartments? Or each staircase to different set?

Usually different one.

Sometimes you can get between staircase by basement corridor or corridor in attic, but both are basically unused and may be restricted to use only by residents.

So you need to use matching entrance.

@Matija_Nalis

Do you mean it sounds strange because there are multiple main values, or something else?

Yes. Also, because saying that half of entrances (or every single entrance to a building) is “main” seems suspect.

Kind like saying “these things are our priorities” and proceeding to list every single possible goal, direction and project.

@Matija_Nalis

Hmmmm, to me it seems normal usage in English (but I’m not native speaker).

I am not either.

@Matija_Nalis

So if there can be “(multiple) main features”, then there can also be “(multiple) main entrances”, right?

Though listing every single feature of a plan as a main one seems suspect.

[Mateusz_Konieczny]

@Matija_Nalis

And while talking about it, I find entrance=staircase badly defined. It says just “A staircase entrance, almost always a door” which does not help much. Ok, most of the entrances to buildings are doors, so that does not seem specific. But neither is “A staircase entrance” really any more descriptive than entrance=staircase.

I agree.

@Matija_Nalis

Only picture on entrance=* wiki helps a little (surprisingly, picture at supposedly more detailed entrance=staircase does not help at all!) - it seems that after a door is opened there are stairs. But do they lead to single private home (eg. building=home)? Or to a many different households (e.g. building=apartments)? Or it doesn’t matter and it can lead to both private homes and condos?

The problem with File:Madeira - Door and staircase in Câmara de Lobos.jpg - OpenStreetMap Wiki image is that it quite clearly is a building=house or at least look like one. I tried to take a clearly better picture but was not able so far.

@Matija_Nalis

And do stairs have to be after the door, or can they be before door (or both before and after?). Do the stairs even matter, or can it be just a step or two (e.g. if it is single-floor apartment building)?

I guess that idea was to restrict use it for entrances to staircases of apartment buildings.

I agree that technically one could use it for building=house with staircases which makes using this data annoying.

@Matija_Nalis

And if stairs must be there, must they begin immediately after the door as in that picture, or can there be a short hall (e.g. containing multiple postboxes) before stairs? (as is most common case in Croatia for multi-floor apartments buildings / condos, for example)

I expect that small hall is entirely OK, the same happens in Poland.

[Mammi71]

@dieterdreist

The latter is typical for higher buildings as fire regulations usually require 2 different escape routes, and in lower buildings the second route can be through the windows and fire department ladders while high-rise buildings usually require additional staircases (and entrances).

Yes, I know such buildings for professional reasons. But the ones I know have a different house number for each entrance (then each entrance can also be a main entrance) or they are pure escape staircases.

@Mateusz_Konieczny

In Poland it is typical that building has a single house number, multiple entrances and each of entrances leading to a separate set of apartments.
…
numbers displayed on entrances show ranges of apartments accessible through a given entrance (top-left entrance had its sign missing so data is missing for now).

Calling every single out of this six entrances a main one seems a bit weird to me.

For buildings like this, I would only use all entrances as entrance=yes. But I would have no problem at all with entrance=main, there is nothing unusual about it. I also see no added value in entrance=staircase. For entrances to apartment buildings with 20 flats per entrance, I would necessarily expect a staircase.

@Mateusz_Konieczny

top-left entrance had its sign missing so data is missing for now

Logically, this must be flat no. 61-80.

@Mateusz_Konieczny

Yes. Also, because saying that half of entrances (or every single entrance to a building) is “main” seems suspect.

Nothing about that ist suspect.
But a simple entrance=yes would be quite sufficient.
Defining something as a main entrance only makes sense if it is also mapped to other entrances that are not main entrances.

[dieterdreist]

| Mateusz_Konieczny
February 17 |

• | - |

Yes. Also, because saying that half of entrances (or every single entrance to a building) is “main” seems suspect.

Kind like saying “these things are our priorities” and proceeding to list every single possible goal, direction and project.

I don’t agree. Any building with more than one entrance will probably have a main entrance, and it is not completely off to call the entrance to a residential building “main” entrance even if it has only one (or more likely if only one is mapped, we don’t map garden entrances of private buildings usually)

Though listing every single feature of a plan as a main one seems suspect.

to me “main entrance” means it is a potential target for routing, preferable to an entrance=yes (unless you really want to got this yes entrance, e.g. because of the housenumber) it doesn’t imply it is very prominent, decorated or somehow else magnificent.

[Mammi71]

@dieterdreist

I don’t agree. Any building with more than one entrance will probably have a main entrance,

Mateusz’s last example shows that obviously buildings (with only one postal address) can have several entrances without one of them being the main entrance. All entrances are equal.

@dieterdreist

to me “main entrance” means it is a potential target for routing, preferable to an entrance=yes (unless you really want to got this yes entrance, e.g. because of the housenumber) it doesn’t imply it is very prominent, decorated or somehow else magnificent.

Therefore, in Mateusz’s last example, both “one” main entrance and all entrances as main entrance do not make sense.
But all entrances as entrance=staircase gives me no added value either, because I would expect a staircase at each of these entrances in a multi-storey apartment building.
For a sensible routing in this concrete example, the additional specification of the flat number would always be necessary, otherwise I would often be standing in front of the wrong entrance.

[dieterdreist]

Therefore, in Mateusz’s last example, both “one” main entrance and all entrances as main entrance do not make sense.

I disagree, as these are each leading to an isolated staircase to access the apartments they are all main entrances. If there are additional entrances/doors to the building they could be tagged as yes. The main entrances could also be tagged as yes, it doesn’t make a difference if there are no other entrances.

[Mammi71]

@dieterdreist

Die Haupteingänge könnten auch als Ja markiert werden, es macht keinen Unterschied, wenn es keine anderen Eingänge gibt.

That’s what I write all the time and that’s what I mean

[Mateusz_Konieczny]

@Mammi71

But all entrances as entrance=staircase gives me no added value either, because I would expect a staircase at each of these entrances in a multi-storey apartment building.

For additional context: old-style apartment blocks, especially higher ones, have also garbage chutes.

This garbage chutes have service entrance at the bottom with dumpsters collecting trash. There is a garbage chute and no staircase.

Some buildings, including modern ones, may have service entrance to a power substation.

Many, especially more modern ones, have shops at the ground floor and service entrances to the shops.

@dieterdreist

I disagree, as these are each leading to an isolated staircase to access the apartments they are all main entrances.

Personally I would be fine also with this tagging.

@dieterdreist

The main entrances could also be tagged as yes, it doesn’t make a difference if there are no other entrances.

It makes difference as it marks them as surveyed and checked by a mapper, rather than possibly being service ones. In some countries, including Poland, it also makes clear that they should be checked for ref and apartment range which very often will be marked.

[IanH]

A entrance should not be mark as main unless it has something make it central to the buliding. This can be some type of lobby or front desk. A place where guests can check-in or get information from. It might be the building manager and mail pickup is in a residental building. In general there should be only one main entrance. The only except be when there is another outside door that leads to the same place. Even for larger buildings there should only be one per facing.

[aighes (Henning)]

@Mateusz_Konieczny

There may be connection between staircases but often is not typically used.

For me those are are all entrance=main. If I want to go to flat 50, top-right entrance is the main entrance I want to be routed to. There might be as well other entrances leading to the same flat. For example one entrance from road-side, another one from the car-park in the backyard. That one would be entrance=secondary in my understanding.

[aighes (Henning)]

I don’t think your explanation is covering the case @Mateusz_Konieczny is talking about. Each of those doors is a main entrance for the related flats.

I can think of plenty of buildings having multiple main entrances. Like shopping malls, train stations, airports, exhibitions halls or other larger buildings. It’s rather common, they are accessible from more than one door, but all are main entrances. Additional there might be secondary entrances and service entrances.

[IanH]

@aighes

For me those are are all entrance=main. If I want to go to flat 50, top-right entrance is the main entrance I want to be routed to.

How is the main building entrance. When you live in the building you will know which of the many secondary door go to your flat. If not, you look for the most noticable one and hope there someone inside who help you.

[aighes (Henning)]

All the entrances are the same. Check out the location @Mateusz_Konieczny posted on Google StreetView. It’s one building with one housenumber and it has 6 identical entrances, each of them serving 20 different flats.