We kindly ask to do so.
Thank you.
Thank you Mikel.
If possible, I would like to ask you to contact the DWG, and request that they revert their deletions, as a dispute process will be handled by Blackadder.
talkat.
talkat, I’m stepping out of this. You can talk to Blackadder, or possible rw, about the DWG. I’ve emailed them asking to mediate, and am awaiting their reply.
Guys, Sorry to barge in but I think that from now on all conversations on our “side of the fence” should be made confidential (In a similar manner to that of the DWG discussions).
We should present a single front on this issue and not show internal dispute or disagreement.
I did not take part in this discussion but after reading the thread I feel like this is not on our best interest to continue in this manner.
Google Maps is also available in Hebrew, English and Arabic and the name Jerusalem appears in Hebrew and English name…
http://maps.google.com/?hl=iw&ie=UTF8&ll=32.226743,34.747009&spn=2.183969,2.69989&z=9
PA distortion: Jerusalem, Hebron, Atarot, Shechem, Ashkelon and Tel Aviv originally had Arabic names
East Jerusalem Palestinians Say UN Move Would Hurt Them; Many Prefer Israeli Citizenship
Dear All,
OSM is used around the world as an international tool to reach consensus about facts on the ground as local populations see and experience them. We are all aware that Jerusalem has been declared by the Israeli government as the “United Undivided Eternal Capital of the Jewish State of Israel”, and that every one living in it is equal under the democratic law of the Knesset. In (Israeli) theory this works fine for those who choose to not look at facts on the ground.
Since said declaration was made, Israeli authorities have ignored the E. Jerusalem population. The infrastructure in place for sewage, clean water, waste management and house building is the same as what it was during the Jordanian rule, and as is such clearly (and intentionally) insufficient do to natural population growth. Very few schools have been built (if any at all) in the Palestinian neighborhoods of East Jerusalem. According to the Association for Civil Rights in Israel (ACRI), the school system is missing 1,650 classrooms, contributing to the highest school dropout rate in both Israel and the Occupied Palestinian Territories - 50%. The only two prominent municipal services provided are: a. Housing demolitions for homes built not in accordance with the non existing infrastructure plan (presenting quite the catch 22), and b. those offered to Jewish settlements. These settlements use both manipulative and violent ways to gain and steal land in the middle of Palestinian communities with the goal and vision of “Jewdiazing East Jerusalem.”
There is nothing this population can do within the existing democratic structure to change and better their situation. East Jerusalem Palestinians have a very different legal status compared to West Bankers, or Palestinian Citizens of Israel. In 67 they received ‘Residency Status’ (similar to the U.S. Green Card). This status is easily revoked when one leaves for over a year, or moves to a suburb of Jerusalem. It entails all sorts of legal dis-empowerment’s compared to the Jewish Israeli citizens in Jerusalem. In fact over 14,000 Palestinian who were born here, and come from families who’ve lived in Jerusalem for generations - cannot ever come visit again.
Indeed East Jerusalemites do not practice wishful thinking. The East side of town is the largest Palestinian city in this area (over 300,000), it has always been the political, cultural, economic and religious capital of the Palestinian people. The only barrier to this at the moment is the physical one (the 8 meter high “security barrier”) built through the Palestinian communities, separating families, and devastating economies. The Municipality has consistently ignored the Palestinian population since 1967, the Israeli Jerusalem is not their capital.
Indeed, millions of Israelis and others across the West accept that Jerusalem is the capital of Israel, as do I. Some may be unaware that millions of Palestinians and others across the Arab world also recognize Al-Quds as the capital of Palestine, as it has functioned for generations until 10 years ago, when the wall was built and Palestinian governing bodies were violently run out of town.
But to precise, in fact (!), the International community (including the U.S. Government) has never accepted Jerusalem as the capital of Israel. As testament to this, there are no foreign embassies in Jerusalem, they are all in Tel-Aviv. According to international law, the European Union, and the United Nations General Assembly, Jerusalem is not the capital of Israel either.
It is unfortunate the current discussion has become borderline offensive. Everyone involved I have met so far are friendly and reasonable. The realities in Jerusalem are not simple. To engage and work in poor (Palestinian and Israeli) communities that have been used as political pawns for decades by both the Israeli and Palestinian politicians and gain their trust is almost impossible. Each community is very much a world of its own, each neighborhood dealing with its own challenges. I am active in Both Israeli and Palestinian communities in Jerusalem. I wish for them to have the capacity to map and present their realities as they experience them. As a Jewish, Jerusaelmite I am concerned my city is losing it’s character. I am also concerned with Human Rights violations that happen daily in my city. Human and urban rights are not political issues, they are rights we all deserve, not just a privilaged few. I do not appriciate having my charachter called into question without even an attempt to connect with me after we met, we shook hands, smiled at each other and had a fasinating conversation. This level of communication is simply less than what we are capable of. I have invited Dimka to understand these realities and come visit across that greenline he wouldn’t cross earlier. I would like to extend that invitation to this mapping community and to offer a meeting and a tour of Jerusalem.
In regards to political mapping, since 1948 all around Jerusalem the municipality has changed the old Palestinian neighborhood names to Jewish Israeli names: Katamonim is now Gonenim, Baka’a is Geulim, Musrara is Morasha… Lately this practice of Jewdyizing names has been taking place in the current Palestinian neighborhoods (occupied in 1967) in East Jerusalem: Silwan on maps has been changed to Ir-David (City of David), Shiekh Jarrah is now Shim’on Hatsadik, Ras-AlAmud= Ma’aleh Zeitim… This is happening to Street Names, Building Names and many other landmarks across Palestinian communities in E. Jerusalem. These names are facts, changing on maps that a dis-empowered, local population can do nothing about. These new names are what you will find on current maps of Jerusalem. These “facts” on the map do not represent the local realities. Lets admit, all Maps of Jerusalem are political. Mapping in Jerusalem is a political activity. Engaging in the mapping process of Jerusalem is political and to do so makes US ALL political activists. The political question we need to answer together is, will the map reflect a local community experience and reality, or will it reflect what so many other maps already represent: dominant political and economic oppression?
I am sorry if I offended anyone over this past year, it has been quite a challenging and interesting year in Jerusalem. גמר חתימה טובה!!
עם אנשים כמוך ברור שהאויבים שלנו הם כאין וכאפס לעומתך
אתה לא עוכר ישראל אתה פשוט אדם מסכן ואומלל
שמחפש תשומת לב
אז הינה קיבלתה תשומת לב ועכשיו לך תחפש מי ינענע אותך אפס מטומטם
Beside that we are mappers and not political motivated (in opposite to you!) we do see the world from the OSM standpoint.
OSM it’s all about data. Data that is collected and represented in different ways. If you want it looking the way you expect it. You are welcome to create your own Palestine Rendering Engine and change the world you living in.
I’m not interested in discussion about how many schools are in the West Jordan land, in Gaza or New York city and same goes for how poor people are threated!
If you want to discuss about those topics this is not the right forum!!!
The current discussion topic is ONLY about the naming of one city in the standard mapping rendering engine.
Don’t make more out of it. The OSM community will not build roads, schools or rename suburbs for you!
Again: It’s all about data! Go to Google Maps, Bing, Yahoo, Mapquest etc. and look on Jerusalem. It is always defined as capital.
You will not see Tel Aviv defined as the capital of Israel. Why do you think OSM is the right point to change the world !!!
Please stop on this kind of discussions here.
You have already destroyed enough in the Israeli OSM community with this kind of discussion and the dispute you achived in OSM!
ENOUGH!!!
@Micah,
Putting your nasty propaganda aside, let me relate to some of your more sane sentences.
As Mr_Israel said, OSM is about free geographical data which is correct, current, useful and available to all. It is not a mapping branch of the UN. Both the default mapnik stylesheet as well as the openstreetmap.org tile service are of secondary importance.
Also, this is a very vague definition. Perhaps OSM CAN BE USED to such a purpose, but that’s a subject for another discussion.
Physically there is no border between east and west parts of Jerusalem, and for all practical purposes Jerusalem is one city, controlled by Israel. A “city” cannot be a part of “town” (or vice versa) in OSM. These are administrative divisions which are decided by the civil authorities.
As to capitals, there is a pretty clear definition of administrative capital (that’s what we are interested in) from Wikipedia
So perhaps you will enlighten us as to the physical realizations of your claim above. The history here does not matter because OSM is about current data and neither about the past nor the future.
I do not appreciate when people like you, having no idea about how OSM works, without any attempt to initiate a discussion, start wreaking havoc. Just put it into your head: OSM is about DATA, not a particular map made according to a particular stylesheet.
Your political activity is well-known so do not expect that all the people treat you as if you are just a “newcomer who wants to map”.
It is you who refused to post on this forum (or any other forum) during all this time.
- The change of names has taken place, these names physically appear on road signs (right?), therefore OSM should reflect that.
- I don’t know what maps you are talking about, and frankly I don’t care. I, for one, have seen maps, officially made by the PA, where all of Israel is just Palestine and Tel-Aviv is ancient Palestinian village Tel-Arbiiya.
- As to what happens in OSM, you better check before accusing (note the is_in tag on some of the nodes):
http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/node/278477142
http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/node/278477306
http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/node/334491712
http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/node/334492197
http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/node/332793775
http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/node/334463851
http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/node/278474182
There are Jews living in Ir David (which is of course the original name given to the place in 1000 BCE, afterwards passed from generation to generation). So how do you decide what is “local population”? I would be very happy to see both Jews and Arabs mapping their suburbs and working together, but I refuse to waste my time on pointless political discussions.
So, if you are really interested in making the map better, I suggest you stop your stream of venom and start making concrete suggestions. We will not tolerate any more propaganda here.
I don’t understand why you all respond to that moron.
and here is the result of this conflict that was caused by map rendering issues:
http://code.google.com/p/osmand/issues/detail?id=707&colspec=ID%20Type%20Status%20Priority%20Summary%20Opened%20Milestone
my favorite app for android mapping osmand cant find jerusalem! a city is deleted because of people that cant understand the difference between osm data and their political thought ls about the palestine , israeli conflict.
thank me osm board, for pissing me off everytime i look on jerusalem in osm.
i still cant belive how they act in this scenario!