"Edit War" over Jerusalem - meeting with East Jerusalem mappers

talkat · 2011-08-02T17:40:27.000Z

mikelmaron:

Yes, their primary concern is a rendering one, because if that rendering issue is solved it allows them to more easily involve more people on the East side. This is just practical, not political. You don’t have to believe that, but really, all they are asking for is Al Quds in Arabic on the map, as well as Jerusalem in Hebrew. Or Jerusalem in English. But not only Jerusalem in Hebrew. Yes, we’re talking about the rendering here.

In that case, I propose them to use OSM “as it should be”…

Mikel, the more I read your comments here, I feel less good about this particular situation, and OSM in general.

AFAIK, there’s no dispute about the data as it was before the deletion.
As things are now, I expect the following:

If anyone (that is, DWG) is happy with the existing data (prior to deletion), then I expect to revert things to the way they used to be. As dimka quoted the DWG, they have no problem with the data.
The deletion of the Jerusalem name tag is VERY disputable, and seems like a worse situation than it was before.
If you (or the DWG) wants to change things and alter the renderer - they’re free to do so, but there’s no reason to change the data or hold all mappers hostage with threats of ban.
The data before the deletion was accurate, and it should be reinstated asap.
If anyone needs time to “fix” the renderer - let them do it on their own timeline.
The data was there for more than 7 months, and I guess it can stay for a few more weeks.

P.S.
I still expect the DWG to come forward here and explain their actions.

talkat.

mikelmaron · 2011-08-02T18:57:09.000Z

talkat,

Jerusalem on the map in both Arabic and Hebrew. You accept that. Everyone accepts that. Why is the discussion continuing, going in circles? Because you all can’t now agree?

Name tag with both names is preferable to some, maybe more preferable as “accurate”. Two nodes with either name is preferable to others, as a compromise. Both are “accurate” to some degree. East Jerusalem mappers are ready to accept either.

They definitely do not see the prior tagging as accurate. There was a dispute, there is a dispute. It’s really clear.

You guys even got the DWG to say “fine, we’ll just implement the change and fix the renderer later”. Why back out of that now?

The DWG made a decision. They’re not happy with the way things were before … that is, in dispute. To revert back would not satisfy anyone but you guys. DWG is waiting for agreement. They’re ready to move. Please let’s move forward.

-Mikel

mikelmaron · 2011-08-02T19:01:45.000Z

talkat, perhaps you don’t understand that the DWG will add back the names to both nodes immediately, once dimka tells them it’s ok to do so. that is before anything is done to the rendering.
so really, they’re ready to do what you want, what you agreed to clearly last week.

talkat · 2011-08-02T19:57:00.000Z

mikelmaron:

talkat, perhaps you don’t understand that the DWG will add back the names to both nodes immediately, once dimka tells them it’s ok to do so. that is before anything is done to the rendering.
so really, they’re ready to do what you want, what you agreed to clearly last week.

I think it is very simple:

DWG should revert to what the data used to be before the deletions (Jerusalem in Hebrew and capital, Al Quds in Arabic and suburb)
I’m sure the DWG doesn’t need any approval to revert things to the way they used to be.

Now. After the revert, if someone doesn’t like the way things are mapped - Let them open a discussion.

The way things were done until now - I feel that OSM is being hijacked.
There was no discussion, and no agreement about removing the name tag.

When we had our meeting I was not aware of all the information that you wrote above in your earlier posts.
All I cared was to have the data back. For OSM’s sake.

Maybe for you it’s just a trivial thing. But for me, touching the data like this - It’s a VERY big no no!
There was no discussion about it, and when you informed me in the beginning of the meeting that the name was deleted - I was in shock!
All I wanted was to have OSM whole again.
You knew that we were going to have a meeting in the evening. Why was the name deleted in morning before it, without notifying anyone?
Even though it wasn’t you who did the actual deletion - It was you who approached the DWG, and you presented your opinion, without any discussion, and without letting anyone represent any side.
The DWG protocols are confidential, and one can only guess what happened there…
You could have said “Let’s wait with any action until after the meeting”, but you didn’t.

You broke the data, and I request you to fix it.

talkat.

Mr_Israel · 2011-08-02T20:02:07.000Z

Currently I’m seeing it the same way as Dimka. So It’s not that everybody accepts that two nodes! Thats why we continue to discuss.

Please don’t push Dimka on this situation. He has defined his standpoint very clearly and was most probably not aware what will wait on him in the meeting in Jerusalem.
Looking on the whole thing after some days makes the whole conflict stinky.

The whole situation is very strange and the discussion that started here is the result of an unacceptable step of OSM to just remove a sensitive capital from OSM without any editing war just because one side had good contacts.

##################################

Beside that, I would like to understand the technical terms you have agreed on in the meeting as it is still not clear to me:

There will be two nodes. One Hebrew one in Arabic.
The Hebrew one will be defined in the west of Jerusalem as a capital in relation to Israel.
The Arabic one will be defined in the east of Jerusalem and also as a capital. => It will be also declared as in Israel, correct ?

I’m asking that the 2nd time as I want to be sure that we are not creating wrong fact and starting to declare East Jerusalem as the capital of the Palestine state.
THIS NEEDS TO BE ANSWERED.

##################################

Did you try to offer the other side some creative solutions such as setting up their own renderer? You were quick to suggest this to us when we raised some unrelated issues. I’m sure Grassroots
can afford to spend some of their money on this.

I think this will come, but from what I understand, not immediately.

It’s actually the right solution to a lot of issues in OSM. For instance, right now the default map is mostly useless to visitors to Jerusalem, who often speak neither Hebrew or Arabic (like me). I would love to see only English. Or Russian.

@Mikel:
This is actually the problem of OSM, that is not solved yet. We have a big discussion about something that OSM should have taken care in their supported rendering engine: Mapnik. The data is multilingual but not shown this way in Mapnik.
We are facing all over Israel the problem of people are not able to read the streetnames in their native language because they don’t know Hebrew. But we are not starting to create three nodes for Haifa in English / Hebrew and Arabic to make everybody understand what city is talked about. Mapnik should be able to switch the languages in the interface. This way we would not have this discussion any more. It seems like the east Jerusalem mappers are mapping the street for the tourist only, because the most of them are not reading English (@East Jerusalem mappers: don’t understand me wrong I don’t want to say nobody of you can read English).

Do you understand my thoughts ?
Change the renderer to be real multilingual and we can keep just one node for the whole city and even the tourist are happy!

The first step in this direction can be seen in the rendering of openstreetbrowser.
http://dev.openstreetbrowser.org/#?zoom=12&lat=31.815132951436&lon=35.172824873615&categories=&layers=&basemap=osb&overlays=

##################################

dimka · 2011-08-02T21:00:33.000Z

To the best of my understanding, the DWG will not just “add back the names to both nodes”, but also tag Al-Quds as place=city and capital=yes. Without specifying exactly capital of what it is, this would mean an ambiguity which can be interpreted such that it is the capital of a Palestinian state (nonexistent). This would be just plain wrong. @Mr_Israel, is it what you meant?

Or is DWG going to put back the names and not change anything in addition?

@Mikel,
Al-Quds is not just a different name for the same entity as Jerusalem capital of Israel, it’s another entity. You heard the Arab mappers saying they regard it as THEIR capital, surely not capital of Israel… The problem is that as a capital of “something” there is no such entity right now. So it should not be given equal prominence. That’s what I call wishful thinking. I believe they consider themselves belonging to the unexistent Palestinian state, and they try to promote this agenda by bringing Al-Quds and Jerusalem to equal ground. I think they should try to do so outside of OSM, and for the time being accept the fact that they are still in Israel.

I think the discussion is continuing because we don’t seem to agree. We are not one person. That’s why we started it, to hear all the opinions. And also maybe change our own opinions as we progress.

dimka · 2011-08-02T21:54:33.000Z

talkat and Mr_Israel, thank you for your recent posts. I completely agree with them. (My last post was sent before I saw yours

Actually it wasn’t said clearly in the meeting what the EXACT tagging for the Arabic node should be. In particular, I didn’t agree on neither is_in=Palestine nor is_in=Israel nor on not specifying the country at all. This issue wasn’t elaborated.

My opinion is that the only factual way Al-Quds can be tagged as capital is also to have it is_in=Israel. But that’s subject for future discussion. Right now I would expect the DWG to just re-add the names to the nodes and leave the other tagging as it was before.

If Jerusalem is to remain a single node, then I still claim that “On the ground” rule applies.

mikelmaron:

Doesn’t the “On the ground rule” for settling disputes apply here?

It’s unfortunately not that clear here, as there are multiple views right on the ground in Jerusalem.

Let me quote from OSM wiki (http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Disputes#On_the_Ground_Rule):

In the case where there are multiple local names, then if the government with effective and sustained control of the area has an official source of names or an official stance on a naming dispute, then that name is default.

It is a fact that the gov’t of Israel has an effective and sustained control in whole of Jerusalem (at least it is the only government around). And the official name is in Hebrew. What else is needed?

dimka

Mr_Israel · 2011-08-02T22:27:09.000Z

@Dimka: seems like we all have overlapping postings here

Dimka:

I believe they consider themselves belonging to the unexistent Palestinian state, and they try to promote this agenda by bringing Al-Quds and Jerusalem to equal ground. I think they should try to do so outside of OSM, and for the time being accept the fact that they are still in Israel.

I couldn’t explain it in a better way. This is the only problem I have with the two nodes solution.
I want to make sure that OSM is not getting abused for political reasons.

I understand the need to help the east Jerusalem mappers to identifiert themself for the area.
So whats bad about the following Rendering?
http://toolserver.org/~osm/locale/ar.html?zoom=11&lat=31.76729&lon=35.19607&layers=BT

Specially the Palestine mappers had their own server before for the JUMP mapping project and also had the money to buy sat images.
So if they want the rendering to be more arabic => Please conside a owned OSM rendering server. Currently the most of East Jerusalem it is English anyhow (useless for the most people in this area)!

Dimka:

Al-Quds can be tagged as capital is also to have it is_in=Israel. But that’s subject for future discussion.

I agree that this topic need more discussion as it is very political. And actually I would like to discuss with our palestine neighbors about this topic and hear their opinion directly.

talkat:

The way things were done until now - I feel that OSM is being hijacked.
There was no discussion, and no agreement about removing the name tag.
…
You broke the data, and I request you to fix it.

I fully agree that this step should be taken in first place, then we can continue with the discusion.
Please revert the changes done by the OSM Data group.

mikelmaron · 2011-08-03T04:26:41.000Z

Oh well, sounds we’re stuck.

Here’s what you have to do. Find a solution right now that satisfies mappers in Jerusalem, propose it to DWG, they implement, and we’ll move on. Until then, we have what we have. To me, it seems like you guys don’t want to have Arabic name of Jerusalem, final.

But I hope not, because that’s a dispute. And if not, I suggest you meet again with the other mappers asap.

That’s all.

dimka · 2011-08-03T05:12:17.000Z

mikelmaron:

Oh well, sounds we’re stuck.

Here’s what you have to do. Find a solution right now that satisfies mappers in Jerusalem, propose it to DWG, they implement, and we’ll move on. Until then, we have what we have. To me, it seems like you guys don’t want to have Arabic name of Jerusalem, final.

But I hope not, because that’s a dispute. And if not, I suggest you meet again with the other mappers asap.

That’s all.

Where have your patience disappeared, Mikel?

Excuse me being blunt, but why do WE have to “find a solution RIGHT NOW that satisfies mappers in Jerusalem”? You started it, please be so kind as to see it through. Or have DWG appoint an independent investigator, as its rules state. Until then, since there was no edit war, the data should be reverted because the previous state of affairs represented a consensus in the map for more than 7 months.

You still haven’t answered why “On the Ground” rule doesn’t apply.

These so-called mappers are sponsored by an organization which undermines the sovereignty of Israel in Jerusalem. Personally I am not going to meet with them anymore, because they have already displayed they are not interested in sincere dialogue. Were it so, Micah would have presented himself as he is. I don’t feel obliged to get out of my skin in order to satisfy three mappers each of whom made two-three edits.

dimka

talkat · 2011-08-03T05:16:22.000Z

mikelmaron:

sounds we’re stuck.
…
that’s a dispute

I suggest we go back to basics, and follow the Disputes guidelines

Solving Disputes

In the event of a disputed tagging, users are first encouraged to communicate directly with other editors in the area, to try and work out a solution.

If for any reason you do not want to communicate directly with the other editor(s), you can contact one of the following people to mediate the dispute.
Mikel
Blackadder
Rw

AFAIK, this did not happen.
No East Jerusalem mapper contacted any other mapper to try and work out a solution.

They did, however, contacted you. But instead of “mediate the dispute” - You carried out an action.
There was no mediation whatsoever!
The change was made in the morning of the meeting that has taken place in the evening.

mikelmaron:

Until then, we have what we have.

That is so wrong in so many levels!

Mikel, you became too involved in this situation, and I ask you to take back your actions with the DWG, ask the DWG to revert the data to the way things were before last week, and ask either user:Blackadder or user:Rw to mediate.

talkat.

mikelmaron · 2011-08-03T06:08:16.000Z

I can ask Blackadder to mediate. And the DWG makes decisions independent of me.

Mr_Israel · 2011-08-03T06:09:16.000Z

We kindly ask to do so.

Thank you.

talkat · 2011-08-03T07:29:59.000Z

mikelmaron:

I can ask Blackadder to mediate.

Thank you Mikel.

If possible, I would like to ask you to contact the DWG, and request that they revert their deletions, as a dispute process will be handled by Blackadder.

talkat.

mikelmaron · 2011-08-03T07:35:25.000Z

talkat, I’m stepping out of this. You can talk to Blackadder, or possible rw, about the DWG. I’ve emailed them asking to mediate, and am awaiting their reply.

hesher · 2011-08-03T08:13:07.000Z

Guys, Sorry to barge in but I think that from now on all conversations on our “side of the fence” should be made confidential (In a similar manner to that of the DWG discussions).
We should present a single front on this issue and not show internal dispute or disagreement.

I did not take part in this discussion but after reading the thread I feel like this is not on our best interest to continue in this manner.

yossicl · 2011-08-10T14:55:05.000Z

Mr_Israel:

Google Maps:
http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=de&ll=31.814563,35.112305&spn=2.007118,4.22699&z=9

dimka:

Notice that all cities in neighboring Arab countires are shown in both Arabic and English, while the ones inside Israel+PA are shown only in English.

Google Maps is also available in Hebrew, English and Arabic and the name Jerusalem appears in Hebrew and English name…

http://maps.google.com/?hl=iw&ie=UTF8&ll=32.226743,34.747009&spn=2.183969,2.69989&z=9

mikelmaron · 2011-08-17T12:18:37.000Z

Piece on names in Jerusalem on the BBC
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-14515035

dimka · 2011-09-30T04:52:51.000Z

mikelmaron:

Piece on names in Jerusalem on the BBC
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-14515035

PA distortion: Jerusalem, Hebron, Atarot, Shechem, Ashkelon and Tel Aviv originally had Arabic names

East Jerusalem Palestinians Say UN Move Would Hurt Them; Many Prefer Israeli Citizenship

micha_kurz · 2011-10-07T12:14:59.000Z

Dear All,
OSM is used around the world as an international tool to reach consensus about facts on the ground as local populations see and experience them. We are all aware that Jerusalem has been declared by the Israeli government as the “United Undivided Eternal Capital of the Jewish State of Israel”, and that every one living in it is equal under the democratic law of the Knesset. In (Israeli) theory this works fine for those who choose to not look at facts on the ground.

Since said declaration was made, Israeli authorities have ignored the E. Jerusalem population. The infrastructure in place for sewage, clean water, waste management and house building is the same as what it was during the Jordanian rule, and as is such clearly (and intentionally) insufficient do to natural population growth. Very few schools have been built (if any at all) in the Palestinian neighborhoods of East Jerusalem. According to the Association for Civil Rights in Israel (ACRI), the school system is missing 1,650 classrooms, contributing to the highest school dropout rate in both Israel and the Occupied Palestinian Territories - 50%. The only two prominent municipal services provided are: a. Housing demolitions for homes built not in accordance with the non existing infrastructure plan (presenting quite the catch 22), and b. those offered to Jewish settlements. These settlements use both manipulative and violent ways to gain and steal land in the middle of Palestinian communities with the goal and vision of “Jewdiazing East Jerusalem.”

There is nothing this population can do within the existing democratic structure to change and better their situation. East Jerusalem Palestinians have a very different legal status compared to West Bankers, or Palestinian Citizens of Israel. In 67 they received ‘Residency Status’ (similar to the U.S. Green Card). This status is easily revoked when one leaves for over a year, or moves to a suburb of Jerusalem. It entails all sorts of legal dis-empowerment’s compared to the Jewish Israeli citizens in Jerusalem. In fact over 14,000 Palestinian who were born here, and come from families who’ve lived in Jerusalem for generations - cannot ever come visit again.

Indeed East Jerusalemites do not practice wishful thinking. The East side of town is the largest Palestinian city in this area (over 300,000), it has always been the political, cultural, economic and religious capital of the Palestinian people. The only barrier to this at the moment is the physical one (the 8 meter high “security barrier”) built through the Palestinian communities, separating families, and devastating economies. The Municipality has consistently ignored the Palestinian population since 1967, the Israeli Jerusalem is not their capital.

Indeed, millions of Israelis and others across the West accept that Jerusalem is the capital of Israel, as do I. Some may be unaware that millions of Palestinians and others across the Arab world also recognize Al-Quds as the capital of Palestine, as it has functioned for generations until 10 years ago, when the wall was built and Palestinian governing bodies were violently run out of town.

But to precise, in fact (!), the International community (including the U.S. Government) has never accepted Jerusalem as the capital of Israel. As testament to this, there are no foreign embassies in Jerusalem, they are all in Tel-Aviv. According to international law, the European Union, and the United Nations General Assembly, Jerusalem is not the capital of Israel either.

It is unfortunate the current discussion has become borderline offensive. Everyone involved I have met so far are friendly and reasonable. The realities in Jerusalem are not simple. To engage and work in poor (Palestinian and Israeli) communities that have been used as political pawns for decades by both the Israeli and Palestinian politicians and gain their trust is almost impossible. Each community is very much a world of its own, each neighborhood dealing with its own challenges. I am active in Both Israeli and Palestinian communities in Jerusalem. I wish for them to have the capacity to map and present their realities as they experience them. As a Jewish, Jerusaelmite I am concerned my city is losing it’s character. I am also concerned with Human Rights violations that happen daily in my city. Human and urban rights are not political issues, they are rights we all deserve, not just a privilaged few. I do not appriciate having my charachter called into question without even an attempt to connect with me after we met, we shook hands, smiled at each other and had a fasinating conversation. This level of communication is simply less than what we are capable of. I have invited Dimka to understand these realities and come visit across that greenline he wouldn’t cross earlier. I would like to extend that invitation to this mapping community and to offer a meeting and a tour of Jerusalem.

In regards to political mapping, since 1948 all around Jerusalem the municipality has changed the old Palestinian neighborhood names to Jewish Israeli names: Katamonim is now Gonenim, Baka’a is Geulim, Musrara is Morasha… Lately this practice of Jewdyizing names has been taking place in the current Palestinian neighborhoods (occupied in 1967) in East Jerusalem: Silwan on maps has been changed to Ir-David (City of David), Shiekh Jarrah is now Shim’on Hatsadik, Ras-AlAmud= Ma’aleh Zeitim… This is happening to Street Names, Building Names and many other landmarks across Palestinian communities in E. Jerusalem. These names are facts, changing on maps that a dis-empowered, local population can do nothing about. These new names are what you will find on current maps of Jerusalem. These “facts” on the map do not represent the local realities. Lets admit, all Maps of Jerusalem are political. Mapping in Jerusalem is a political activity. Engaging in the mapping process of Jerusalem is political and to do so makes US ALL political activists. The political question we need to answer together is, will the map reflect a local community experience and reality, or will it reflect what so many other maps already represent: dominant political and economic oppression?