Επεξεργασία πολέμου - Λίμνη Γκιστόβα / Γράμος / Edit war - Lake Gistova / Gramos

Γεια σε όλους τους Έλληνες χαρτογράφους!

Μπορεί να φαίνεται κάπως περίεργη η ερώτηση, αλλά υπάρχουν διαθέσιμοι επίσημοι / κυβερνητικοί χάρτες της Ελλάδας στο διαδίκτυο;

Η DWG εμπλέκεται αυτήν τη στιγμή σε μια διαμάχη σχετικά με την πραγματική τοποθεσία ενός τμήματος των ελληνοαλβανικών συνόρων, όσον αφορά τη λίμνη Γκίστοβα / Γράμμο, και αν η λίμνη πρέπει να βρίσκεται στη μία ή την άλλη χώρα, ή ενδεχομένως να χωριστεί μεταξύ των δύο;

Η μία πλευρά της διαφωνίας βασίζεται στο 100 ετών πρωτόκολλο της Φλωρεντίας του 1925 (!), μέρος της συνθήκης του Λονδίνου του 1913, το οποίο φαίνεται να χωρίζει τη λίμνη.

Ωστόσο, νεότεροι χάρτες, συμπεριλαμβανομένων και αυτών από την ΕΕ, προφανώς δείχνουν τα σύνορα ελαφρώς διαφορετικά;

Λοιπόν, υπάρχουν διαθέσιμοι επίσημοι χάρτες που να δείχνουν τα σύνορα σε αυτήν την περιοχή;

Λάβετε υπόψη, ωστόσο, ότι δεν εννοώ τους υποτιθέμενους “Επίσημους” τοπογραφικούς χάρτες του Αλβανικού Στρατού ή της Ελληνικής Γεωγραφικής Υπηρεσίας που είναι διαθέσιμοι στις διευθύνσεις Global Explorer και Global Explorer, καθώς τουλάχιστον ο χάρτης Key Index φαίνεται να βασίζεται στο OSM!

Ευχαριστώ

Graeme Fitzpatrick
Συντονιστής
Ομάδα Εργασίας Δεδομένων OSMF


Hello all the Greek mappers!

It may seem a somewhat strange question, but are there any official / Government maps of Greece available online?

DWG is currently involved with a dispute over the actual location of a segment of the Greek - Albanian border, with regard to Lake Gistova / Gramos, and whether the lake should be located in one country or the other, or possibly split between the two?

One side of the disagreement is based on the 100 year old Florence protocol of 1925 (!), part of treaty of London of 1913, which does appear to split the lake.

However, newer maps, including from the EU, apparently show the border slightly differently?

So, are there any official maps available to show the border in this area?

Please note though, that I don’t mean the supposed “Official” Albanian Military Topographical, or Hellenic Geographical Service maps available at Global Explorer and Global Explorer, as at least the Key Index map appears to be based on OSM!

Thank you

Graeme Fitzpatrick
Moderator
OSMF Data Working Group

Σε αρκετούς χάρτες όπως του Κτηματολόγιου, τους χάρτες της ΓΥΣ 1:50000 εμφανίζεται από την πλευρά της Αλβανίας.
Ωστόσο, τίποτε από αυτά δεν είναι περισσότερο επίσημο από μια διεθνή συνθήκη που δεν έχει αντικατασταθεί από νεότερη, συνεπώς η λίμνη θα πρέπει να εμφανίζεται μοιρασμένη.

I was looking for such information too concerning the border with N. Macedonia. See Note: 4567100 | OpenStreetMap and Note: 4570861 | OpenStreetMap

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Γενικά το ελληνικό κράτος δεν έχει την τάση να μοιράζεται τα παιχνίδια του όσον αφορά τα χαρτογραφικά δεδομένα, άρα ότι χάρτης δυνητικά μπορεί να χρησιμοποιηθεί πρέπει να έχει περάσει ο χρόνος για να γίνει κοινό κτήμα και θα είναι αντίστοιχης παλαιότητας με τις συνθήκες. Ως προσωπική μου άποψη συμμερίζομαι την οπτική του geraki ότι επίσημες διακρατικές συνθήκες καθορίζουν τα σύνορα πάνω από τις άλλες πηγές, ειδικά εφόσον η πραγματικότητα στο έδαφος είναι ότι μάλλον δεν θα υπάρχει τίποτα επιτόπιο που να καθορίζει το σύνορο.

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Συν ότι ακόμη και οι χάρτες του geodata.gov.gr (για τα datasets που δείχνουν μέχρι τα σύνορα), είναι κακής ποιότητας για το συγκεκριμένο ζήτημα, δείχνοντας τα σύνορα σαν πρόχειρες ευθείες.

Σας ευχαριστώ όλους για την πολύτιμη συμβολή σας!

Μετά από πολλή έρευνα, κατέληξα στο συμπέρασμα ότι αυτό το πρόβλημα είναι, προς το παρόν, άλυτο, καθώς (όπως είπατε αρκετοί από εσάς) απλά ΔΕΝ υπάρχουν νόμιμα διαθέσιμες πηγές στο OSM για να προσδιορίσουν την ακριβή τοποθεσία των Συνόρων.

Στο πλαίσιο αυτού, επικοινώνησα με έναν χαρτογράφο σε ένα κοντινό (ελληνικό) χωριό, ο οποίος με ενημέρωσε ότι, κατά την γνώση του, τα σύνορα δεν έχουν ερευνηθεί μέχρι σήμερα και ότι έχει δει προσωπικά ότι ορισμένες από τις αρχικές πινακίδες σήμανσης, στα ~100 χρόνια που μεσολάβησαν από την τοποθέτησή τους, έχουν υποστεί ζημιές ή καταστραφεί.

Οι Αλβανοί χαρτογράφοι έχουν επίσης ενημερώσει ότι το ίδιο πράγμα που αναφέρθηκε παραπάνω ισχύει και από εκείνη την πλευρά, καθώς η κυβέρνηση δεν δημοσιοποιεί δεδομένα χαρτογράφησης στο ευρύ κοινό.

Συνεπώς, έχω αποφασίσει ότι το status quo, όπως υπήρχε πριν ξεκινήσει ο πόλεμος επεξεργασίας, δηλαδή η Λίμνη ανήκει εξ ολοκλήρου στην Ελλάδα, θα συνεχιστεί, επομένως έχω:
-διορθώσει το περίγραμμα της ίδιας της Λίμνης, ξανασχεδιάσει τα μονοπάτια πεζοπορίας που είχαν διαγραφεί και επίσης διορθώσει τις διάφορες Σχέσεις που υπέστησαν ζημιές στο φιάσκο που προκλήθηκε από τον πόλεμο επεξεργασίας,
-επισημάνει τη Λίμνη και τα παρακείμενα Σύνορα ως αμφισβητούμενα, με μια σημείωση που ενημερώνει ότι δεν πρέπει να αγγίζονται χωρίς προηγούμενη άδεια του DWG,
-πρόσθεσε αυτό στο wiki των Αμφισβητούμενων Εδαφών: Disputed territories - OpenStreetMap Wiki

Σας ευχαριστώ και πάλι για όλη τη βοήθειά σας!


Thank you everybody for your valuable input!

After much research, I have come to the conclusion that this problem is, at this time, irresolvable, as (as a number of you have said) there are simply NO sources legally available to OSM to determine the exact location of the Border.

As part of this, I contacted a mapper in a nearby (Greek) village, who advised me that to his knowledge, the border has not been surveyed in living memory, and that he has personally seen that some of the original marker posts have, in the intervening ~100 years since they were positioned, been damaged or destroyed.

Albanian mappers have also advised that the same thing as mentioned above applies from that side, in that the Govt does not release mapping data to the general public.

I have therefore determined that the status quo, as it existed before the edit war started, i.e. the Lake is entirely with Greece, shall continue, so have:
-corrected the outline of the Lake itself, redrawn the walking paths that had been deleted, and also fixed the various Relations that were damaged in the debacle caused by the edit war,
-marked the Lake and adjoining Border as being disputed, with a note to advise that they are not to be touched without prior DWG permission,
-added this to the Disputed Territories wiki: Disputed territories - OpenStreetMap Wiki

Thank you again for all of your assistance!

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FYI if you ever have an issue with the border with N. Macedonia, that country’s data can be found here https://e-uslugi.katastar.gov.mk/imotenList I get a connection timeout when trying to reach it, but maybe that’s because it’s Sunday :slight_smile:

Bulgaria’s data is here КАИС Портал

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I removed it from the Disputed territories as there is no real dispute between the two countries - only between a handfull of mappers.

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Fair enough.

Thread title updated

Just a heads up, επεξεργασία πολέμου would be editing a war, the correct translation would be πόλεμος επεξεργασιών or on Wikipedia, διορθωπόλεμος (correcto-war) is also used :Ρ

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Thanks, but that’s a perfect example of auto-translator issues! :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:

Putting “edit war” into Google Translate English > Greek gives “επεξεργασία πολέμου”, but swapping that around to Gr > En gives “war processing”.

As you said, “πόλεμος επεξεργασιών” In Google becomes “edit war”, but “processing war” in the Firefox translator, while using the Forum’s built-in translator on your sentence gives “Just a heads up, edit war would be editing a war, the correct translation would be edit war or on Wikipedia, correcto-war is also used”!

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The entry was added back, but I didn’t want to touch the page given that it is about disputed territories.

How can we update the page to make it clear that the section border is poorly defined and subject of an edit dispute at OSM level, rather than disputed by the AL and GR governments?

Updated to say this!

One of the participants in the edit war has now contacted me to say that they do not agree with my reasoning, as they consider that the original UN document clearly defines the Border and splits the Lake between both countries.

I have given them my reasoning, and suggested that they may like to discuss the matter further in this thread, so have included my reply here, for everyone’s information.

FYI, the original (French) document is available at https://archives.ungeneva.org/accords-de-londres-1913-frontiere-greco-albanaise-protocole-de-delimitation-avec-cinq-annexes-florence-1925-commission-internationale-de-delimitation-des-frontieres-de-lalbanie. An English translation is included at Section II - D and Section III of https://library.law.fsu.edu/Digital-Collections/LimitsinSeas/pdf/ibs113.pdf

My response to their argument was:

"Yes, you sent us a copy of a document, that is apparently © the UN, but which is released by them “for non-commercial, personal, or research use only” (i.e. not for mapping in OSM), under a CC-BY licence that we would need a waiver signed to be able to use.

If you have read that document, you will have seen:

ARTICLE IV.

The course of the border is indicated:

1. By the 177 sheets drawn up, one for each boundary marker, with a description of the boundary marker and a detailed description of the border from the said boundary marker to the next boundary marker (Appendix II) [my bold]

2. By the general description of the border (Annex III).

3. By 7 sheets of the border map at 1:50,000 drawn up by the International Commission for the Delimitation of the Boundaries of Albania in 1923-1924 (Annex IV).

The descriptions given in the documents referred to above refer only to this latter map, which replaces either the summary maps at 1:100,000 drawn up in 1913 by Messrs. Captains King and Grabau, annexed to the Protocol of Florence of December 17, 1913, and which the Commission recognized as inaccurate, namely the 1:50,000 sketch provisionally adopted in 1923 by the Commission and on which the Conference of Ambassadors had given its decision for Section I.

In the event of discrepancies between the map and the text, it is understood that the text of the detailed descriptions appearing on the sheets of paragraph 1 shall prevail. [my bold]

However, by the document, there were only 3 copies of the 177 descriptive sheets produced - 1 was retained by the Conference of Ambassadors, with 1 each being given to the Governments of Greece and Albania.

Appendix III.

General description of the border line.

From Vratsa, the boundary line straightens, in a southerly direction, without leaving the Devoli–Belitsa watershed, and it reaches, via Tchafa e’Fouches (point 1469), the summit of Badaroche (point 2036). [ This would appear to be Node: ‪Μπανταρός‬ (‪2806078758‬) | OpenStreetMap ]

From Badaroche, the boundary continues to follow the line of the ridge of the Gramos range in a generally southerly direction, passing successively by points 2217 (Goubbel) [Node: ‪Maja Gobelit‬ (‪5304404306‬) | OpenStreetMap ], 2519 (Mt. Tchioukapetsit) [Node: ‪Τσούκα Πέτσικ‬ (‪305681514‬) | OpenStreetMap ] , 1977, 2167 (Mt. Sarpoun), 2144; by Tchafa e’Badres (point 1772); then by points 1909 (Mt. Guiontchit), 1934 (Golo), 2041 (Mt. Kammenik), 1474 (Vari Lople), 1634 (Mt. Vaches), 1047; then it drops rapidly, passing by points 712 and 644, to the Sarandaporos thalweg, at point 430.

You will notice there is no mention of the Lake, which is located between “Goubbel” and “Mt. Tchioukapetsit*”.*

Maintenance of the Border Line.

ARTICLE VIII.

a) The maintenance of boundary stones, small pyramids, and the cutting of timber three meters wide on each side of the frontier line shall be the subject of a special agreement to be concluded between the two Governments concerned.

b) Until such an agreement is concluded, this maintenance shall be assigned as follows: from Lake Prespa to the Sarandaporos-Voyussa confluence (inclusive) to Albania;

from the Sarandaporos-Voyoussa confluence (exclusive) to Phtelia Bay
to Greece;

moreover, a Commission, composed of an officer from each country, shall visit the frontier line once a year and prepare a report on the condition of this line. It shall meet on July 1 of each year at Kapeshtitsa.

As part of my investigation into this case, I have spoken to a mapper in a nearby Greek village, who told me that the Border hasn’t been surveyed in living memory, and that he has personally seen that some of the Border marker posts have been damaged and/or destroyed.

Other mappers, located in both Greece and Albania, have also told me that neither Government releases any mapping data for general public use.

Taking all of this into account, I again say that this is irresolvable, and will remain that way until a detailed survey of the Border is carried out by either, or both, of the Governments concerned, with the resulting details then being released to teh general public, in a format that OSM can make use of to update our currently drawn maps.

I therefore consider this case to now be closed, but if you wish to discuss it further, I would urge you to do so publicly, at the Forum thread I mentioned earlier: Επεξεργασία πολέμου - Λίμνη Γκιστόβα / Γράμος / Edit war - Lake Gistova / Gramos - #6 by Fizzie-DWG "

Using just Official Albanian Geospatial Primary Sources and not google maps or other means to show the correct location of the lake from my perspective. These sources lie under the direct office of the Albanian Prime minister, yet they clarify the position of the glacier lake as being located solely on the Greek frontier. Now if you still have doubts about the lake still being divided I cannot help you. Lastly, I include a British map from WWII that shows that the lake is directly situated on the Greek side of the border as well. I personally believe that the issue is a mistake of a mule pass that has not been rendered as a frontier pass. That is my conclusion. If Albania was 100% sure it would had already requested an arbitration on this matter. Nevertheless, you don’t have to believe me. Facts are sacred comments are free.

Here are 3 Primary Sources.

All ASIG maps overlap exactly.

https://geoportal.asig.gov.al/map/?auto=true (Please zoom here directly to the Greek Albanian frontier where Lake Gistova is located all the way to the end and the rest will clarify by itself. Above all use the 2007 20 CM bottom Square picture makes it easier. Use on the left side the 2007 CM bottom picture.

Some coordinates as well
KRGJSH567577.417, 4470181.886

WWII Official War Office map 1943-44

Might not be exactly what you asked for but I think the official maps can only be purchased from the appropriate military branch in both digital and print formats upon written request. Every other source used by the government is from ESRI and even the “Κτηματολόγιο” that was mentioned from some other members has added aerial imagery (2016 latest) which is not really used by anyone.

”Η ΓΥΣ παράγει ορθοφωτοχάρτες ή ορθοφωτογραφίες κατά παραγγελία και σε ειδικές περιπτώσεις (πχ. Περιοχών κατεστραμμένων από θεομηνίες ή πυρκαγιές). Μπορούν να χορηγούνται σε αναλογική μορφή (εκτύπωση) ή ψηφιακή μορφή.”

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You might be able to make out the area from the samples, or if anyone here has any relation to a school with an official map from the government. The maps in schools are official and provided from the military. Again I might be wrong but I am quite sure that there is no other official map.

As for the license these are under, I honestly have no idea

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Thanks for all that!

I see that the site says “Copyright (c) 2017 Hellenic Military Geographical Service”, so even if somebody bought a map, they would still need permission to use it for mapping!

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Yeah you are right. We could try contacting them but I suspect that it’s going to become a way bigger deal than it needs to be. They could allow usage for this particular mapping initiative buuuut I don’t think the process would be easy… Things like local municipalities have legal departments for that sort of thing and i have no idea what they have, so at the very best it would be stuck in an internal approval process

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