Craft & Industrial

ALu68 · 2023-01-02T19:40:44.343Z

Is it recommendable to use landuse=industrial & craft=winery in parallel?

In my view, both differ in the magnitude of output and labor force. The craft production is mainly done by hand and with little automation. Industrial production is mainly carried out by machines and a high level of automation. Sure, there is no hard border between both.

Background of my question is to avoid an edit war.

Nadjita · 2023-01-02T20:27:43.955Z

I’d personally use landuse=vineyard instead of landuse=industrial, even for the area around the craft=winery area/node.

Map_HeRo · 2023-01-02T21:48:51.974Z

It depends on the scope of work done. Many wineries are small, privatly owned businesses and most work there is done by hand as you wrote. These wineries imho are definitely not industrial, but craft. The wines they produce are often sold at their premises or in specialized wine shops. Good restaurants often buy their wines from these wineries.

On the other hand there are also companies doing large scale wine production (and may also produce other alcoholic drinks). Most of the production process in these companies is industrial style, like using huge steel tanks for storage, fermenting and aging and automated production lines for bottling etc. They produce millions of litres of wine annually mainly for supermarkets and multiple shop chains. These I would tag as landuse=industrial + man_made=works + product=wine.

I do not know if there are different terms for these diffenrent types of wineries in english but in german we call the craft wineries “Winzerei” and the industrial ones “Großkellerei”.

SK53 · 2023-01-02T21:58:02.125Z

Even large scale wineries which mass-produce wine most of the site will be concerned with storage whether in bulk or in bottles. Take a look at Columbia Crest Winery which I had a go mapping some of the detail a while back. Most of the site is taken up a large warehouse facility and storage tanks (presumably for wine), with a visitor centre and shop near the car park. (This also applies to things like whisky distilleries where storage of the product occupies most space).

If you did want to use an alternative landuse for the larger wineries I’d say commercial is at least as appropriate.

One useful rule-of-thumb for industrial landuse is would the area need some kind of remediation before it could be used for other purposes. I don’t think wine-making, even on an industrial scale, is likely to contaminate the ground to any degree.

pyram · 2023-01-03T17:17:08.464Z

ALu68:

Is it recommendable to use landuse=industrial & craft=winery in parallel?

I don’t know why, but it seems to be deprecated:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:industrial%3Dwinery

Map_HeRo · 2023-01-03T19:00:12.665Z

Yes,industrial=winery is deprecated and that is probably the reason why the place described by @ALu68 ist tagged as landuse=industrial + craft=winery which does not really fit together.

pyram · 2023-01-03T22:30:26.038Z

Map_HeRo:

Yes,industrial=winery is deprecated and that is probably the reason…

See e.g. Way History: ‪江苏双甑坊酒业有限公司‬ (‪1042357472‬) | OpenStreetMap
…

SomeoneElse · 2023-01-04T00:09:26.647Z

That page was created in September 2021 to say that that combination was deprecated. If there was discussion about it earlier, I don’t know where it was. There’s nothing on the tagging list at around that time, but the tagging discussion may have been earlier of course.

More generally, I don’t see why an industrial facility couldn’t have “craft” elements within it. In a related industry, a large industrial plant that produced mass-market beer had an associated musem, within which was a small brewery (although both recently have recently closed).

pyram · 2023-01-04T11:24:33.224Z

Yes, of course. I wrote too “I don’t know”. But I even don’t know any discussion to do the other side.

SomeoneElse:

More generally, I don’t see why an industrial facility couldn’t have “craft” elements within it.

What should be the sense, to duplicate the craft=* to industrial=“similar to craft”? Split all industrial areas into small “shoemaker, winery, sawmill …”? And tell the renderer "Hey this small “Industrial area” is called “foo-name”?
That cannot be the solution, an industrial area like Way: ‪Gewerbegebiet Pollenfeld-Preith‬ (‪62105375‬) | OpenStreetMap
in parts of all factory and craft.

SomeoneElse · 2023-01-04T13:50:00.259Z

pyram:

What should be the sense, to duplicate the craft=* to industrial=“similar to craft”?

In the example I quoted, it was not a duplicate. The large industrial brewery contained a museum that contained a different smaller non-industrial brewery. Real life is sometimes complicated.

pyram · 2023-01-04T15:40:47.355Z

OK.
I looked on the data - and ups: I did something similar: industrial=brewery without (!) landuse=industrial
Some years ago there was a (very nice) map with breweries, showing the breweries different to “hand made”, “normal” and “industrial”…

The very very new Wiki says use landuse=industrial :-/

Map_HeRo · 2023-01-04T19:18:29.606Z

SomeoneElse:

More generally, I don’t see why an industrial facility couldn’t have “craft” elements within it. In a related industry, a large industrial plant that produced mass-market beer had an associated musem, within which was a small brewery (although both recently have recently closed).

I fully agree but the question of the OP to my understanding was how to tag the premises of a winery, in particular if craft=winery should additionally get the landuse=industrial which is not necessary to my understanding.

If in a larger industrial estate a winery may be located in between a steel factory and some cement production plant (don’t take this too serious) then I would not see any reason to cut it out from the landuse=industrial … nothing that I would have seen so far anyhow … the wineries operated as owner operated craft business usually are located in rural areas close to the vineyards.