Complaints against Brazilian category moderators

Another important question what should we do if (with exception of one) none of the other current moderators are disclosing their affiliations (or explicitly the lack of it) at 2024 revalidation? On one case, the companies to be disclosed likely would be ones on OSMF sponsorship https://osmfoundation.org/wiki/Corporate_Members and/or Overture equivalent https://overturemaps.org/, so is definitely relevant.

Perhaps they have no CoI at the moment? In which case you should do nothing :slight_smile:

If they do have CoI related to OSM, as Working Group Conflict of Interest Policy - OpenStreetMap Foundation (which also applies to moderators) says, they should declare it:

  • Working Group Members should list employers, directorships, and other similar affiliations on the WG membership page if their organisation does business related to OpenStreetMap.

(there is no “WG membership page” for community forum moderators though, so the community forum user page or wiki is probably the best place to do it. It’s not a big deal, but the document could use some brushing-up to more cleanly cover all categories it applies to).

If in doubt, I would ask in thread in that category each moderator explicitly to list/update their potential CoI affiliations (in case they forgot to update their user page), or to state explicitly if they have no potential CoI related to OSM.


But I see you seem to have done it already for Brasil category, and got an answer in Brasil - Revalidação dos moderadores - fevereiro de 2024 - #25 by matheusgomesms with list of current moderator affiliations.

If you doubt the truthfulness of those information, I would suggest you provide other information which you may find might be in conflict with stated affiliations and ask for clarifications on seemingly conflicting information in polite way (instead of, for example, engaging in potential libel, attacks, accusations or other sorts on uncivil or non-friendly behaviour)

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One moderator is making threats of legal action against voters in the same thread future voters are supposed to disclose their reasoning to not continue with his moderation.

Can anyone with super moderation powers go there, remove this threat, and warn the moderator to not do public threats again in the election 2024 and let the election run it’s course?

(Obviously, if anyone feel offended and plan to do legal action, can simply do it)

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What “threats” are you talking about? This?

If so, what “threat”? They seems to be asking you to provide evidence for your claims of their alleged wrongdoings, lest it be considered libel. That doesn’t seem as any “threat” as you seem to imply, if you ask me. In fact, libel is exactly the same thing I warned you to refrain from in my post above (which you :+1:-ed - and yet here you seem to complain when others warn you of the exactly same thing?)

Also, you should’ve produced the supposed evidence in the same post where you accused them of alleged wrongdoings, instead of “I’ll provide proof at some indefinite point in the future”. That is ridiculous behaviour. You need to provide proof of your accusations ASAP, or hold your peace forever after, eh? Does something so obvious really needs to be pointed out?

Especially seeing that you’ve seemingly had grievances with those mods for more than a year now, one would expect that you would be ready to spill all that evidence on the first hour of the first day of that moderation thread coming into existence!


I try hard to afford people second chances, and to take posts in good faith by default, (regardless of previous behaviors of posters). I like to think that people should be given a second chance, for a hope that some would repent on their old bad behaviors and try to improve how they behave in the future. That goodwill is however not a license to go back to bad behaviors one has already been sanctioned for in the past. Please don’t waste that chance. You can do better and provide valuable input to community.

Can anyone with super moderation powers go there, remove this threat,

:man_facepalming: As the saying goes, be careful what you wish for, as if people with “super moderation powers” stumble upon such shenanigans again, they might as well decide to remove the perceived community threat.

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Please share links to where this individual supposedly threatens you?

Done. I took the time to write why people can be upset with one of the moderators.

I hope it is sufficient to allow election in one subforum. Otherwise if requirements are the same, there’s no difference between revalidation and health checks.

1. Context (TL;DR related to a set of problematic organized editings)

Most of the discussion of a set of armchair organized editing happened on province-level Telegram channel @osmrs (place where this specific moderator on Brasil (Brazil) is not moderator; it’s relevant because can delete own messages, but not from others).

As per Organized Editing Guidelines, even under urgency, is expected to “contact the community” and a group of organizers done on @osmrs because was the closest group with mappers from the region. This set of mapping started in the month of 2023-09

2023-09-12 https://t.me/osmrs/25550 (link and date merely for date reference, this is the first non-deleted message on @osmrs for the first organized editing). This other have the image https://t.me/osmrs/25557 (archive: https://archive.is/dQl4x)

After their 100% validation several weeks later, of the list of active mappers of Rio Grande do Sul, I decided to check, and I started to find several issues.

2023-11-19 https://t.me/osmrs/25875 (archived: https://archive.is/Sdqre) merely for reference date; first message related to the issues I raised in the group)

But the ones I found aren’t detected by automated tools (and not, are not related to unesquared building or building touching ways). Some kinds of data are not even possible to infer from aerial imagery alone, and this is relevant because none of the mappers/validators are from the region to have local knowledge (the most common being using specialized types of building=* over the building=yes). At first I guessed everything of this kind was outright invented by the armchair mappers, and asked with an Etiquette-compatible tone on changesets for explanations of sources of information. However, at least part (the reduced number which was plausible and has name=* and sometimes other metadata) was just copied from Google; for example, even one of the validators replied here https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/141593785 admitting using “Google Street View and Google Maps” beyond the “Bing Maps Aerial” in the changeset.

The organized editing organizers at first didn’t reply to the complaints on @osmrs telegram. Simply ignored. Other mappers from my region agreed the problems were real, however (other than suggesting attempts to fix) no local mapper wanted to dedicate time to fix (in particular because it could not be automated). That is when I start asking help outside on strategy to do a full revert to the previous state. However only at this point organizers start replying and promising to do another round of validation.

I contacted DWG, which promptly responded. Then I became aware that the DWG itself could revert if necessary and potentially take other actions, however I (while informed of the ongoing situation) preferred to wait. This was on 2023-11-22, so is before they moved away from @osmrs.

One link to see a compilation of my complaints was done later in the wiki, for who’s interested is here https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Organised_Editing%2FActivities&type=revision&diff=2633119&oldid=2633081, it’s at the end of the table “Activities list”.

2. Summary of a incomplete list of the problems (TL;DR: attempt use of community to decide data problems / manipulate data complains even on OSM Wiki / selectively hide links to admissions from own validators)

2023-12-15

2023-12-15: this is the date the moderator on Brasil (Brazil) decided to announce on @osmrs (province level; he’s not moderator there) the intent to create a voting on @OSMBrasil_Comunidade (country level,; he’s moderator there) on this (now deleted) message https://t.me/osmrs/26026. His message on the other channel (where he was moderator and make permanent threats of Etiquette ban to anything against his projects) is on (not deleted, at least not yet) https://t.me/OSMBrasil_Comunidade/1/71977

“Olá pessoal, como uns dos responsáveis pelos projetos e dada as observações da comunidade do OpenStreetMap do Rio Grande do Sul quanto a qualidade dos dados, peço que a comunidade brasileira avalie a necessidade de reversão das projetos citados aqui → https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/2023_Brazil_Floods

2023-12-??

2023-12-?? I’m unsure which date and time, but between 2023-12-15 and 2023-12-19, he deleted most of his own previous messages on @osmrs.

Nalis, Did you know the term if when someone does something, then erase, then later complain to prove? I don’t know where this election will go, but I find it ironic.

By the way, I know what DifamaçãoPortuguese is, and this one does can be a crime regardless of having proofs of be true or not affirmation. Do exist other specific types that do match your description.

2023-12-19

2023-12-19:I compiled the list with examples of each issue on an achievable place, under control of OSMF, the same link suggested by Organizer Editing Guidelines: The Wiki Organised_Editing/Activities. What happened? He deleted. And then deleted again. Already at start, he already did not copied everything. I reported this edit war on Wiki:Talk https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Wiki#Organizer_keeps_removing_reference_from_own_activity_on_the_Organised_Editing/Activities and opted to make no further edits on the Wiki and opted to wait until they finished the re-re-??-validation.

2023-12-19 I addition to his edit messages on Organised_Editing/Activities about deleting because content was somewhere else on the wiki to delete the complains about organized editing, someone (Mateusz) questioned on his talk pake https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User_talk:Everton_Bortolini if he truly copied the content and he confirmed. Also note that on 23 December 2023 (UTC) was making redaction, and is unclear that was discussed in any public place. His attempt on 2023-12-15 did not get others engaging (trivia: most people do not even have the skill to evaluate this); would be a good question for him where the “Brazilian community” discussed the edits in the exact level of detail he done, otherwise not only would be CoI, but he actually is lying.

2.1 Incomplete list of examples of what’s removed (Using OSM Wiki as one example that has history)

Telegram doesn’t have built-in history (on this point it is less powerful than Discourse). But mappers from my region on @osmrs know he wrote there (and these old messages don’t exist). So I’m using OSM Wiki to prove how manipulative he can be, such as when he selectively deletes the direct links for Tasking Manager documentation and every time participants (e.g one Validator and 2 HOT global validators) confirm serious issues.

:point_down:

CLICK HERE to expand the list. Content with strike is example of what is missing

:point_up_2:

Under certain circumstances (which actually are even partially documented, but can be deliberately ignored), a mapping activity using the Task Manager can have good enough final results to pass automated checks while still with similar types of problems as this one (remember: initially it already was 100% validated). When this happens, not even TM global validators will be able to fix collateral damage. I know this because I talked with them (which is one of the omitted links).

I’ve just skimmed your post quickly (I’ll give it more time later), but I do not seem to find any detailing of this particular accusation as I understand it:

So, do you have somewhere in there any proof that that person, acting as a community.osm.org forum moderator, was actually deleting information on community.osm.org forum while having CoI in the topic where deletion allegedly took place?

Not what happened on unofficial telegram channels, not alleged wiki wars, not DWG related complaints, not illegal activities they may be involved IRL etc. (not to say those are not important if true: but they do not seem related to this particular accusation about Discourse category moderation powers abuse - if that was indeed what you complained about).


So, was there any abuse of moderation privileges on this Discourse instance in forum category where they are moderators (i.e. Brazil category AFAICT?). If so, in which thread exactly did deletion took place? (link the thread please)

Or, if they did not do that, what exact rules (that would preclude them being Discourse category moderators) do you accuse of them of having broken? Can you quote that exact line, so we’re on the same page what we’re talking about?

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Caro Emerson,

Fiquei surpreso ao ler sua acusação de que menti em um tópico no fórum da comunidade do OpenStreetMap. No entanto, para que eu possa entender e abordar adequadamente sua preocupação, seria útil se você pudesse fornecer mais detalhes sobre a alegação específica que você acredita ser falsa e o fato real correspondente.

Estou comprometido com a transparência e a precisão em minhas interações online, especialmente em comunidades tão importantes como o OpenStreetMap. Se há algo que precisa ser corrigido ou esclarecido, estou mais do que disposto a discutir isso de forma construtiva e colaborativa.

Por favor, forneça mais informações para que possamos resolver esse mal-entendido da melhor maneira possível.

Atenciosamente,

Everton

I have split this topic off from the selection criteria as it was not about selection criteria, but Brazilian moderators. The etiquette guidelines say to start a new thread if you want to introduce a new topic.

I’ve also only skimmed and will look at what I need to read later. If you have a concern about behavior around an organized edit, please contact the DWG. This category is only about Discourse and if you have complaints about behavior somewhere else in OSM you need to take it up with the appropriate body.

You’ve alleged a specific misuse of moderator powers, but I can’t see any links.

Please provide a link to the topic thread where you believe inappropriate moderator action was taken. In general, someone can privately contact the forums governance team at any time if they believe moderators are violating the rules, but in this case the allegations are already public.

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One single moderator on Brasil (Brazil) (subforum of a OSMF-sponsored thing) edits content on OpenStreetMap Wiki (OSMF-sponsored thing) related to the company he’s an employee. This situation is relevant because both the history of description for changes from him on https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Organised_Editing/Activities&action=history, and also when explicitly asked to explain his further edits that remove content, see https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User_talk:Everton_Bortolini, he mentions “Brazilian community” to win arguments and continue further edits.

If he wasn’t moderator on Brasil (Brazil), OSM Wiki admins et al would react differently. Actually, even for DWG decide what the level of reaction of what to do (the case still open; only recently in the revalidation process he edited wiki to mark as “done”, so eventually I still need to stop and update DWG), becomes relevant if the edits on complaints for the organized editing are based on false claims of support.

Under this context, the lack of content of discussions on Brasil (Brazil) about this set of problematic organized editing in the region I’m a mapper (such as having public evidence that specific the changes he made aren’t outright invention of the responsible of organized editing) actually are relevant.

I hope I provided sufficient explanation on why the re validation on Brasil (Brazil) should allow vote in 2024.

<snip the parts about wiki / DWG issues, as those are being handled by their respective teams and cannot be handled by Discourse teams like forum-governance - you do realize those are separate functions with separate privileges, right @fititnt?>

Sure, problematic organized editing for some region should be discussed in that forum category, I’m all with you here.
But how is the fact that you (and possibly other parties) didn’t take the effort to discuss the issue in Brasil (Brazil) Discourse category in any way related to Discourse category moderator abusing their Discourse moderation powers in Discourse forum?

From your wording before, I was expected that you started a discussion in Brasil (Brazil) forum category, and that the moderator there with Conflict-of-Interest inappropriately deleted that discussion because they didn’t like it being discussed or whatever. Did that happen, or not? Please answer this question with simple Yes or No.

If they didn’t do that; did they instead break any rules that apply specifically to Discourse category moderators (not wiki, not edits, not mailing lists, not tile usage ToS, not crimes IRL etc.), and if they did, please quote exactly which rule (with a proof of such allegation).

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IOW, forum moderators are chosen by their ability to fairly moderate the forum.

And not by their ability to correctly use JOSM and make useful map edits, or to edit the wiki in accepted and understandable way, or to speak clear English, or their ability to lead in a military conflict, write good OSM open source code or play good soccer.

They could be absolutely horrible at any or all of those (which I am neither implying, nor denying; as I have not even had time to look into it), and still be excellent category moderators. In fact, it is statistically almost a rule that if you are good at one thing that you’ll likely be worse at other things.

So, the question pertaining to selection of moderators is “are they doing good job of managing category forum?”, and do people using that category in that forum approve of their use of extended moderator powers in that forum category?


So if they are doing a good job of category moderation, and users of that category approve of the way they use their moderation powers, then everything is as it should be as far as their category moderation status is concerned, I would say.
(until possible overriding OSM global ban is issued, which obviously haven’t happened)

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I would just like to point out that Community Forum (Discourse) is one thing, OSM Wiki is another, Organized Edit is a third different thing. Let me clarify if it’s still not clear to you:

1 - if you have a problem with a moderator here (Discourse), you bring the problem to @forums-governance (immediately! Not just when revalidating mods)
2 - If you have a problem with any edits (organized or not), contact the mapper first, then local community (if not solved), then DWG (if not solved).
3 - I don’t see any relevance with your complaints with regarding to OSM Wiki Administrators. What should they do? What the Brazilian mods did wrongly on the wiki that the admins there should have done?

Are you saying that those 18 people on that wiki page are accomplices to any wrong behavior in the wiki (which are still not clear to me)? I would not like to be accused to that, thankfully I’m not a wiki admin!

You made several accusations to all Discourse @mods-brazil in the past weeks, and yet you haven’t provided any proof. Also, you’re constantly violating the Etiquette Guidelines, which is not the first occurrence, since you were banned last year about the very same thing.

I even myself translated that page to Portuguese, just to make the guidelines clear to Portuguese-speakers. Have you EVER read that page?

Finally, could you please respect our free time, and stop accusing us in many topics, but when we ask you anything you simply don’t answer? You didn’t answer here, nor here, here, not even a thread you opened here or here.

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You are making a very, very serious accusation, and then citing Etiquete.

I provided the link to OSM Wiki (another OSMF-sponsored) about one moderator deleting/editing content from organized Editing he’s part of and arguing some supposedly support of “Brazilian community”.

So, your accusation is false. I am presenting proofs.

Am I?

Where? Where did Everton or any Brazilian mod did something off the rules in this very same forum? Everybody is asking for proofs for many days, and yet you haven’t provided.

Did you read what all the other people wrote to you? Do you understand the difference between Discourse, Wiki, OSM Edits?

Matija has wrote you several messages, and you haven’t answered any of that.

So I’ll insist: please provide where any Brazilian moderator is not doing their job properly here on the Community forum. No need to over-explain, just post a single community.openstreetmap.org link where this happened.

We are here to help you, but you have to help us first.

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Trecho do dialogo com Mateusz Konieczny no User talk:Everton Bortolini - OpenStreetMap Wiki

O que foi “apagado” está na documentação do projeto específico.

Você contactou a comunidade brasileira antes de contactar o DWG?

Hello,

the forums governance team has reviewed the evidence provided by Rocha (@fititnt) and no evidence provided supports there being any issues with the Brazil category moderation. We also found no evidence on the cited wiki pages of the Brazilian category moderators claiming any authority outside the Brazil category. In fact, we found no mention of moderators or moderation at all.

Rocha was asked multiple times by multiple people to supply evidence to moderation-related misconduct and did not provide any. If he had evidence, this was the time to supply it.

Although in some cases conduct in some other location may impact someone’s ability to be a moderator here, it would be unusual and normally involve measures taken by the other location’s moderation (e.g. DWG or Wiki admins). This is not the case here, and Rocha has a previous history of assuming improper behavior of Brazilian moderators without evidence, when the alleged improper behavior did not happen.

The issues appear to all stem from a dispute over organised edits. Handling this is the job of the Data Working Group, not of forum moderators or the forum governance team. We are not equipped to handle editing disputes, nor do we have any powers on the OSM API as part of our forum work.

If an individual believes misconduct has happened they can raise it with @forums-governance at any time. They do not need to wait for annual health checks and if there is misconduct it is better to deal with it at the time. We can check what moderation actions were taken on a topic and verify what happened.

In addition we have found that Rocha’s actions on Discourse, viewed as a whole, fall well short of the expected behaviors in the etiquette guidelines and repeatedly claiming a group of people are misusing moderation powers while failing to provide evidence when asked multiple times is not acceptable behavior. This serves as a formal warning, and repeating this behavior may lead to blocks or other actions from the global moderators or forums governance team.

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I discovered in the middle of the revalidation here Brasil - Revalidação dos moderadores - fevereiro de 2024 - #28 by Matija_Nalis that even to enable voting in the annual health check, it would be necessary to provide a longer justification. Done in English instead of Portuguese here https://community.openstreetmap.org/t/complaints-against-brazilian-category-moderators/110407/12 because was a reply to this https://community.openstreetmap.org/t/complaints-against-brazilian-category-moderators/110407/10, because it also helps to contextualise one moderator deleted his messages and other content outside this Discourse, such as telegram channel he was in contact with local community. He also makes threats of taking legal action in the very place that other mappers would vote.

I repeated multiple times the reason to add this information here is to enable voting, and still waiting for this yes or no to the original request. The context of what’s happened is bad enough for mappers express they dislike; even if voting become more a act of protest than majority in the first year, it work as deterrent for moderators here, in Telegram, and on OSM Wiki to stop using Etiquette to censor complains for data-related issues. It is also relevant because (based on what happened here in Rio Grande do Sul) helps require in future that any individual claiming to represent “Brazilian community” for self interest become expected to provide evidence of where it was decided (which is very relevant to DWG complaints).

With all this said:

  1. Can @forums-governance provided where I affirmed justifications are for the permanent health check, instead of the voting justification?

  2. Can @forums-governance explain that it was not me that created the title of this thread “Complaints against Brazilian category moderators”?

  3. Can @forums-governance, also considering your reply from the Q1 and my previos replies in this thread, look at the 5 links with “proofs” that I do not reply answers here and pinpoint which one I was required to reply?

As context 2 of the 5 questions are… related to my membership on Engineering Working Group which I cannot simply reply in public without consult other members.