Caravan sites and campers

Cascafico · 2022-08-29T10:25:40.150Z

As far as I understand (I’m not english) from wiki page, tag caravans=yes/no is related only to trailers (AKA “roulottes”). In this case, there are no tags to define a camp site where only “campers” (AKA “campervans”) are allowed. There are many of them in Italy and several are simple parking places with some amenity, but cannot accomodate trailers nor tents.

How can I map them?
Which is the correct definition of “caravan”?

Mateusz_Konieczny · 2022-08-29T10:52:04.631Z

tents=no | Tags | OpenStreetMap Taginfo can be used to mark not allowing tents

I am confused how/why campers would be allowed and towed caravans not. Is it about size?

Cascafico · 2022-08-29T11:32:14.253Z

There are two reasons:

practical: like you said, a vehicle plus towed caravan can hardly accomodate in a 5-7 meter parking space
legal: a towed caravan, once stabilized, loses its moving status and become camping, which in Italy is forbidden outside caravan sites.

Note that in several countries even an overnight stop of a camper is illegal. Instead, in Italy you can: that’s why I think is important to differentiate tags for OSM.

scai · 2022-08-29T12:18:37.132Z

Looks like there is an old (2010-2012) but similar discussion at the German wiki page for tourism=caravan_site. The suggestion is to use the (already established) tag motorhome=* in addition to the caravan=* tag.

Unfortunately tourism=camp_site doesn’t mention motorhome=* at all but seems to handle caravan and motorhomes as the same thing.

bradrh · 2022-08-29T15:17:44.643Z

The caravan definition includes campervans/motorhomes/RV’s as well as trailers.
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:caravans
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:tourism%3Dcaravan_site

There are campgrounds around here that have length limits or don’t allow trailers. It seems like we need tags to clarify those cases

dieterdreist · 2022-08-29T15:39:44.520Z

current tagging for a rv only place would be
caravan=no
motorhome=yes

according to
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:access
caravan is a subclass of trailer, while motorhome is a subclass of double_tracked_motor_vehicle

bradrh · 2022-08-29T19:13:55.820Z

Surprise, there are inconsistencies in the osm wiki.
This one makes more sense to me
"The caravan might be a trailer towed by another vehicle (ie travel trailer, camping trailer, popup camper), or a larger motorized vehicle (recreational vehicle (RV) or motorhome). "
which is from: Key:caravans - OpenStreetMap Wiki
I think we would find that ‘caravan’ is used in the wider sense most of the time

I would tag it as:
caravan=yes
motorhome=yes
trailer=no
maxlength= *

Cascafico · 2022-08-30T08:51:28.993Z

I’ve found some british definitions for non-trailers recreational vehicles. To sum it up, the class
Recreational vehicle (RV) is composed by:

trailer (AKA roulotte), towed
campervan, based on van, with modified interior
motorhome, based on van chassis, with its own interiors and exteriors

From a tagging point of view, campervans and motorhomes can usually access the same places and have the same legal status for parking or camping. I think applying same tagging (ie: “motorhome”) can be confusing. Should we go for motorhome=yes/no/only and campervan=yes/no/only?

Note: actually some barrier exist to block motorhomes VS campervans is some parkings (ie: supermarket ones with max height restrictors ), but they are up to property and not to traffic rules.

dieterdreist · 2022-08-30T10:14:31.293Z

I don’t think we should distinguish campervans from motorhomes at all, it is a marketing distinction, or are there legal differences?

trigpoint · 2022-08-30T12:29:54.040Z

None in the UK although some sites do have a maximum length due to the physical restrictions of the site.

bradrh · 2022-08-30T14:03:08.357Z

It’s a commonly used distinction in the US. A campervan is on a van chassis, less than 7 m, a motorhome can be huge, like a full size bus.
Often there is a legal distinction for an RV, it includes a toilet and shower. Many campervans do not have that.

APneunzehn74 · 2022-08-31T08:53:39.621Z

Is a place only for mobile homes (vans ec.) not a:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:tourism%3Dcaravan_site

joost_schouppe · 2022-09-01T08:41:43.536Z

A “camp site where only campervans are allowed” is tourism=caravan_site. That may sound weird, but it’s just a label - refer to the wiki to see what it really means. This includes things that look like “designated parking spaces for campers”, if overnight stay is explicitly allowed. If you want to avoid confusion, you could follow the advise here to add caravan=no and motorhome=yes. If I were traveling with a caravan, I wouldn’t trust I could use any caravan_site that did NOT have a caravan=yes tag (i.e. in Europe it feels like the default is no and people don’t add that tag often).

dieterdreist · 2022-09-01T09:33:09.489Z

it’s admittedly a bit confusing as someone might be traveling with a caravan and think it applies to them while it actually refers to caravans rather than caravans…

dieterdreist · 2022-09-01T09:34:05.200Z

commons.wikimedia.org

File:Caravan in the desert.jpg

APneunzehn74 · 2022-09-01T12:40:57.825Z

That’s right, in Germany no caravans (trailers) are allowed on camper pitches. Unless it’s explicitly allowed, which is almost never the case.

emvee · 2022-09-12T12:04:41.632Z

scai:

Unfortunately tourism=camp_site doesn’t mention motorhome=* at all but seems to handle caravan and motorhomes as the same thing.

I just added it to the table in Tag:tourism=camp_site, that has the comment:

The table lists tags which can be added to the campsite

So I think it belongs in that table.