Caravan_site in UK

General talk Tagging general discussion
1

URL of the following notice:

Ungelöster Hinweis Nr. 3396766
Beschreibung

tourism=chalet

Erstellt von spielmops vor 23 Tagen
Standort: 50,8255996, 0,3907710

Erledigt von Bexhill-OSM vor 18 Tagen

I think the existing tag of tourism=caravan_site fits Normans Bay Caravan Park better that chalet, even though they are static caravans.
Reaktiviert von spielmops vor 11 Tagen

Kommentar von spielmops vor 11 Tagen

Why do you think so?
Kommentar von Bexhill-OSM vor 5 Tagen

It's a place where you can rent a static caravan

End of notice __________________________________________________

The word “caravan” is composed of the words “car” and “van”, both vehicles that are moved on roads. In this respect, “static caravan” is a bit wrong.

The “caravan” on this site are holiday homes with 2 wheels. We all know that these mobile homes only have wheels so that they don’t need a building permit. And you probably save on taxes too. Otherwise, these are normal holiday homes. And no vehicles that are moved on roads.

From wiki of openstreetmap dot org:
"A caravan site, caravan park, motorhome stopover location or RV park is a place where people with caravans / motorhomes / recreational vehicles can stay overnight, or longer, in allotted spaces known as “pitches” or “sites”. …
See also: residential=trailer_park – Residential area consisting of prefabricated houses or static caravans (mobile homes) on small lots.

Tagging trailer parks as “caravan_site” means that campers with caravans or motorhomes drive to such sites and then have to leave disappointed. Unfortunately, many trailer parks in the UK are tagged so badly and this has also been noticed by senior mappers. That’s why the user “CjMalone” created the following challenge:
https://maproulette.org/browse/projects/38792

Spielmops
(Please excuse my bad English, it’s not my mother tongue)

1 Like
2

Your English is good - I understand the issue you are discussing. I don’t know the answer though. It looks like tourism=caravan_site + caravans=no + static_caravans=yes would be valid by the wiki description but other tags may work too.

Note that at some static caravan sites you are not permitted to stay all year. Some residents stay for the duration of the year that you can stay, others use their caravan very much as a tourist for short stays throughout the year.

I have flagged this post with CJ for comment.

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I’m not sure how tourism=chalet would work: do you tag each individual caravan with this or the whole site? Being privately owned they may not even be rented out unlike holiday cottages (which is typically what I use tourism=chalet for in the UK).

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If a site with mobile homes is tagged as tourism=caravan_site, it will get a motorhome-icon on the map. This is highly misleading. After all, the Openstreetmap map is intended for people to find something specific. And that is it why I am writing this.

To avoid this, such a place is tagged as tourism=chalet. And that works exactly the same as with caravan_site: the whole area gets the tag. The icon on the map is that of a holiday home and that’s exactly it.

The latter applies to most camps with mobile homes because they are resorts. In the event that they are sold that does not change anything, they remain holiday homes. When the mobile homes are sold so that people can live in them permanently, landuse=residential is an option.

Spielmops

5

That’s why the user “CjMalone” created the following challenge:

Yeah I made it, I can’t remember the details around making it, but I’m pretty sure I didn’t give exact other tags to change it to, because it was ambiguous then. I don’t think the tagging has improved then and it’s still ambiguous now.

It looks like tourism=caravan_site + caravans=no + static_caravans=yes would be valid by the wiki description but other tags may work too.

That feels like troll tagging to me, but if that’s what gets decided, that’s fine by me. You can also see the talk page for other times people have questioned it.

Note that at some static caravan sites you are not permitted to stay all year. Some residents stay for the duration of the year that you can stay, others use their caravan very much as a tourist for short stays throughout the year.

As far as I know, you basically can’t stay at the holiday ones permanently (in GB), you have to stay away for x time and pay council tax somewhere else. Sure some people break that, but some people live in hotels too.

If it’s permanent residential, it should be landuse=residential residential=trailer_park, I don’t think anyone questions that, nor do I think anyone would argue that those tags belong on a holiday park.

I’m not sure how tourism=chalet would work: do you tag each individual caravan with this or the whole site? Being privately owned they may not even be rented out unlike holiday cottages (which is typically what I use tourism=chalet for in the UK).

Defiantly the whole site, tourism=chalet wiki is clear it’s not only about individual chalets, but also collections of them. If one of the static caravans is rented out separately to the site, it can get it’s own tourism=chalet, but the rest are under the site tourism=chalet.

If a site with mobile homes is tagged as tourism=caravan_site, it will get a motorhome-icon on the map. This is highly misleading.

I don’t think we should be tagging explicitly for the renderer, but tourism=caravan_site in GB is misleading, and I think it’s misstagged hence the MapRoulette.

A caravan site, caravan park, motorhome stopover location or RV park is a place where people with caravans / motorhomes / recreational vehicles can stay overnight, or longer, in allotted spaces known as “pitches” or “sites”.

The above is the first line from the tourism=caravan_site wiki. IMO if you can’t bring your own caravan/motorhome/rv it’s not tourism=caravan_site.

1 Like
6

I think that I found a reason, why some mappers don’t like to use the tag “chalet”. Text from a changing-page:

Comment from user:
“This is classified wrong, it would be better as residential=trailer_park”

Comment from me:
“This is a tourist-resort, so tourism=chalet is imho better. These mobile-homes are all holiday-homes …”

Comment from user:
“It’s confusing as I understand a chalet to be a wooden cottage rather than a caravan.There are some other options for tourism=caravan_site. I think
adding cabins=yes, static_caravans=yes, caravans=no would suffice?”

Comment from me:
"From wiki.openstreetmap.org: tourism=chalet
A type of accommodation in the tourism industry, usually detached. The value chalet describes a [W] holiday cottage, holiday home or vacation home with self-contained cooking and bathroom facilities.This could apply to single chalet or a group of chalets.

Not to be confused with the French term [W] “chalet” for privately owned mountain cabins, for them it is better to use building=cabin or building=house instead."

Maybe a bunch of mappers thimk of wooden mountain cabins …

Spielmops

1 Like
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Maybe a bunch of mappers thimk of wooden mountain cabins …

Not sure, but I definitely wouldn’t think of caravans. Also an image search for “chalet holiday accomodation” did not lead to any such examples with caravans among many pages of results

8

Yes, there’s a confusion between static-caravans and caravans.
Static-caravans can still be moved around and easily replaced unlike permanent buildings (chalets).
So, even though it does seem like troll tagging, I do prefer tourism=caravan_site + static_caravans=yes + caravans=no.

Edit: tourism=chalet has an icon of a hut on a hill, which is also misleading in labelling these ‘caravan parks’.

1 Like
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As a quick note: for static caravans (not the site, but for the individual caravan) there is Tag:building=static_caravan - OpenStreetMap Wiki.

1 Like
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I don’t really care how these “mobil homes” are tagged, as long as they don’t get the motorhome icon. On the other hand: mobile homes belong in the field of tourism. And I still have the question, why is it so important not to tag mobil homes as a chalet? Admittedly, it is true that mobile homes can theoretically be moved, but in reality they all stand on a concrete foundation like all holiday homes.

Spielmops

11

At least in British English these are still regarded as caravans, and static caravan sites are still called caravan sites. Many caravan sites which allow touring caravans will also have some static caravans. In fact for caravan and camping sites probably every combination of allowing/disallowing camping, motorhomes, touring caravans and static caravans exists. Such sites are not restricted to the UK, the 2015 SotM-FR held its conference dinner at this camp site, which offered a range of different accommodation options (lodges, static caravans etc. to rent). The Jungfrau Camping in Lauterbrunnen (CH) is similar.

The OP focuses on the use-case of a tourer with a touring caravan or motorhome, but there are many others. Virtually all static caravans on a caravan park are effectively private properties (although the owner of the site may keep some which are rented out), and they will be used not just by the people who own the caravan and pay the lease, but their extended family. Friends may visit at a weekend. All these people need to find their way there, and these people still call them caravan sites or parks. They are not for rent leisure properties, so tourism=chalet is inappropriate.

Places where people live all year round may make use of static caravans, but more likely make use of prefabricated houses, known in the trade as park homes. In the UK there is specific legislation governing such locations.

Additionally to sites mentioned, there are two other kinds of camping/caravan sites:

  • Static caravan sites with a large number of additional facilities. As mentioned some may approach tourism=resort (Fantasy Island in Ingoldmells offers accommodation, but the actual amusement park is mapped as tourism=theme_park, so I don’t know where this is located).
  • Caravan and camping sites with additional facilities. They seem to be describing themselves as “holiday parks”. The ones I’ve noticed in mapping may offer lodges, glamping tents (including yurts), camping and touring pitches. On site leisure activities may include fishing lakes, woodland walks, childrens’ playground, sometimes an indoor swimming pool. A reasonable example is this one.

Surveying the detailed tagging which is used by Sven Geggus for OpenCampingMap, pretty much all the aspects discussed are covered. The OP may wish to raise an issue on github about rendering with Carto-OSM, but it is quite clear that the general purpose rendering is unlikely to cover all these bases.

2 Likes
12

I do not understand, what you want to say with your post. I know very well, that there are all combinations possible, but I am talking about resorts with mobile homes and no space for motorhomes and mobile_caravan and try to convince everybody not to use tourism=caravan because the map then shows the motorhome-icon and that is irritating people who search for sites which they can use wih motorhomes and (mobile)caravans.

Spielmops

13

@spielmops the Carto-CSS rendering is just one example of how OSM data is consumed. You cannot force change of long-standing tagging just for the purpose of making this single map more usable for a specific use-case. I already pointed to OpenCampingMap which is dedicated for that purpose and therefore far more likely to be of use for someone with a touring motorhome.

3 Likes
14

I think if we change tagging practices it should make the overall situation better. I’m not seeing that here. Moving to chalet just moves the problem from one place to another. The issue is that it’s hard to put things nearly into different categories. Any tagging change should consider the following:

What type of structure/building is it?
Can anyone book to stay there or is it privately owned for own use (+ family + friends)?
Is it part of a larger site or standalone?
If part of larger site can you bring motorhomes / pitch tents there too?

In the meantime I think tourism=caravan_site + static_caravans=yes + caravans=no is the best option at the moment. If you asked a local to describe the site this is probably what they would say (“it’s a caravan site for static caravans and not towed caravans or campervans”)

15

I think you have to change the wiki:

A caravan site, caravan park, motorhome stopover location or RV park is a place where people with caravans / motorhomes / recreational vehicles can stay overnight, or longer, in allotted spaces known as “pitches” or “sites”. They usually provide facilities including toilets, waste disposal, water supply, power supply etc…

What I really don’t understand: for what do we draw the map? To gather data? Or help people find something?
The use of Opencampingmap needs a browser and a webconnection, to find some campsites with Openstreetmap can be made first offline and second by the navigation app.

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Yes! That is the main idea of OSM: we do NOT draw a particular map, we neutrally gather data to enable others to make maps / apps and many other products. Probably one of the biggest misunderstandings for people coming into contact with OSM, and really important to understand.