Can StreetComplete be improved so users don't leave useless and unsolvable Notes?

[Matija_Nalis]

@SomeoneElse Continuing the discussion from Resolving Our Notes (Tips and Progress):

@SomeoneElse

SC is in my opinion a bit keen to suggest “Leave a note instead?” when a question can’t be answered on site.

Do you have a suggestion how to make it “less keen”? It would be appreciated if you’d open an issue there (or just suggest here if you prefer).

Here is how it looks currently when presented a quest (opening_hours quest in this example):

• one must first choose^[1] Uh... to indicate they’re having problems and can’t actually Add opening hours,
• then users eliminate others options listed first (like _“there is no opening hours sign”, “it does not exist” etc), and then choose Can't say... at the end, and
• then they would be explicitly asked whether they want to leave a note with more information or just hide the quest (e.g. when it is unsolvable):

And only then they would reach a form to leave a note (with hint to leave a photo as it makes a note much more useful).

Now, I’m obviously biased (as somewhat involved in its development), but it does not seem to me that StreetComplete is all that keen to suggest leaving notes. In fact, I’m somewhat amazed that most people are able to find a way to leave a note

But do you (or anyone else!) have an opinion / suggestion how it could be made less keen?

It is definitely not an intention to leave useless and unsolvable notes. Perhaps some wording change, or UI improvement, that might improve the ratio of notes that contain enough information so they can be solved properly (vs. those which don’t have enough information and thus require asking users for more info; or closing as #notenoughinfo) ?

Thanks for your thoughts!

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1. somewhat cryptic, we know, but that is positive feature for this issue ↩︎

[Fizzie-DWG (Graeme Fitzpatrick)]

One that always annoys me slightly when clearing SC Notes is “This shop has closed down” (whatever the exact wording is?) Thanks, but what’s there now? Is it vacant? Has the dress shop changed to a beauty parlour? What’s the name of the new place?

Would it possible, when the SC user selects Not Found, to then ask them those sort of questions?

[Matija_Nalis]

@Fizzie-DWG

One that always annoys me slightly when clearing SC Notes is “This shop has closed down” (whatever the exact wording is?)

Uh, could you link to such a note or two? Any text that is there is AFAIK user-written, after they explicitly selected that it is neither vacant, nor some other type of shop/amenity. (so that text/picture in note should hopefully contain details why neither of those answers was appropriate)

@Fizzie-DWG

Would it possible, when the SC user selects Not Found, to then ask them those sort of questions?

But it already does? When user selects It does not exists, this form is shown:

Note is created (with user-provided text/picture, like in original post) only if the user selects that 3rd option.

Any ideas how to make it clearer to reduce number of OSM notes you seem to be getting about shops that have been closed?

[Linus_W_Frische]

I sometimes see notes that say something like “here in a bench” or “bicycle parking” or “hairdresser”. When I first started using SC I didn’t know it was possible to add all these things from within the app. Perhaps it could be made a bit clearer that it’s possible to add things with the red button. Maybe an arrow pointing there the first time the user switches to the mode.

[Mateusz_Konieczny]

@Linus_W_Frische

I sometimes see notes that say something like “here in a bench” or “bicycle parking” or “hairdresser”

I had vague feeling about trying to somehow autodetect that user leaves such note and give hint about Things and Places layers (but how to do in a reasonable way across languages?)

(in fact main motivation for my work on Things layer was to reduce amount “waste basket here” notes)

[Fizzie-DWG (Graeme Fitzpatrick)]

@Matija_Nalis

could you link to such a note or two?

My apologies! When I’ve just looked at some of them, they were all CoMaps Notes!

[Fizzie-DWG (Graeme Fitzpatrick)]

However, one thing from SC, is that the Note is left directly on top of the mapped item, so that you can hardly see the existing icon: OpenStreetMap

It would be easier if it was slightly offset so you could easily click on the icon to be amended.

& incidentally, that Note: Note: 5421768 | OpenStreetMap “It’s a pet butcher now” Name? So as well as “What’s here now instead?” maybe also include “What’s the name of the new business?”?

[Fizzie-DWG (Graeme Fitzpatrick)]

Here’s another common way, in regard to photos.

Note: 5225784 | OpenStreetMap says “there’s a path”, with a photo attached.

But where are you standing, & what direction are you facing? From lots of looking, it would appear that the photo was actually taken from beside the guard railing at the corner of the bridge, ~40m away from the Note pin. Some form of indication to say that you’ve been looking “this direction” when you took the photo would be great!

[Matija_Nalis]

@Linus_W_Frische

I sometimes see notes that say something like “here in a bench” or “bicycle parking” or “hairdresser”.

Yes, they have probably discovered that they can long-press on the map and choose Create new note.

While that works, it is not ideal for that function though, and not only for the reason you mention (that adding directly to OSM database is much preferred to creating a note) but also as the thing you are trying to map might already be mapped, but it is not being shown to you in default basemap (which is designed to be rather uncluttered, instead of containing all possible POIs), so you’d be adding useless duplicate notes (and probably repeatedly).

When I first started using SC I didn’t know it was possible to add all these things from within the app.

Yeah, in my experience most people never discover Overlays functionality in StreetComplete, despite it being one of only three buttons on the main screen, and prominently displayed. (and of those who do discover it or, more likely, are told about it, only few engage in actually using it).

Unfortunately, I don’t have a good idea how Discoverability and Understandably of them could be further improved.

My guess would be that StreetComplete owes most of its popularity due to its simplicity, and Overlays are more complex then Quests, so majority of the audience who use StreetComplete are not inclined to use them (much less actively search for them or try out what functionality the app has).

Perhaps it could be made a bit clearer that it’s possible to add things with the red button. Maybe an arrow pointing there the first time the user switches to the mode.

Well, first time user tries the Overlay functionality, there is small 3-screen tutorial shown, which explicitly says that “some overlays allow you to add new data at the position of a displayed crosshair”.

Do you remember if you’ve read it when it was displayed to you that first time (I highly suspect most users might just click through it)?

While it could go in more detail exactly where you need to click and enumarate all overlays where it is available, I have a feeling that adding more text would be counterproductive, as likely even less people would look at it.

(After all, once you know it is possible to add missing things in Overlays, finding out that big orange + button is not that hard anymore)

But if anyone have specific ideas how it can be further improved to make it more likely to be discovered & understood, please share them!

[Matija_Nalis]

@Mateusz_Konieczny

I had vague feeling about trying to somehow autodetect that user leaves such note and give hint about Things and Places layers (but how to do in a reasonable way across languages?)

Yeah, that crossed my mind too, but the thing that might conceivably work relatively well (i.e. feeding it to local AI) is highly undesirable (both from technical dependency and sociological/ecological/public relations reasons^[1]).

Perhaps, a first (or every?) time when Note functionality is used, it could show a information that for adding missing things one should prefer overlays – and where to find them)

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1. just recall the hate that JOSM got for usage of AI that is much less problematic on several grounds that this would be ↩︎

[flo2154]

@Matija_Nalis

Yes, they have probably discovered that they can long-press on the map and choose Create new note.

Maybe we could add a new entry in that menu “Add thing to map” or similar that opens a dialog that explains that you should use the Things overlay.

EDIT: Suggested at Make Things/Places overlay more discoverable · Issue #6971 · streetcomplete/StreetComplete · GitHub, please comment feedback on this particular suggestion there.

[SomeoneElse (Andy Townsend)]

@Matija_Nalis

Yeah, in my experience most people never discover Overlays functionality in StreetComplete, despite it being one of only three buttons on the main screen, and prominently displayed. (and of those who do discover it or, more likely, are told about it, only few engage in actually using it).

When you select the “overlays” button there’s some text that you have to click “next” on to get rid of before you can see what overlays actually are.

Unfortunately then there is no obvious help and no link to any documentation.

[aharvey (Andrew Harvey)]

@Fizzie-DWG

However, one thing from SC, is that the Note is left directly on top of the mapped item, so that you can hardly see the existing icon: OpenStreetMap

It would be easier if it was slightly offset so you could easily click on the icon to be amended.

I would say that’s more an iD issue which could be solved by iD.

StreetComplete leaving the note at the exact same coordinates as the node, is a way of implicitly attaching the note to the feature, and could be useful for certain apps to detect that the feature has an “attached” note about it.

[ICT_maps]

Having the node/way/relation linked in the note is a good thing that so many other apps leave out. You don’t even need to be in iD to figure out what it’s talking about with SC notes (and in the case of defunct things, people often delete them right after making the note so that helps track what they’re talking about)

[Matija_Nalis]

@Fizzie-DWG

However, one thing from SC, is that the Note is left directly on top of the mapped item, so that you can hardly see the existing icon: OpenStreetMap

It would be easier if it was slightly offset so you could easily click on the icon to be amended.

Sure, but that is UI usability feature request for iD, not really related to StreetComplete (quite few other tools leave notes on OSM elements too).

iD should allow its users to select either the note or the OSM element at the same place. Perhaps by making clickable area bigger, or having user choose what they want if they click on point containing multiple things etc. But I digress; any ideas really should be submitted to iD issue tracker (I’m not really an iD user, so someone else would be better person to do that).

The reason it is left exactly on the node, is because if it was offset, it might be misunderstood to correspond to some other closeby amenity (and also, technically, Note on a element disables further StreetComplete quests about it until the note is solved, which wouldn’t work if Note was just “somewhat nearby”))

@Fizzie-DWG

& incidentally, that Note: Note: 5421768 | OpenStreetMap “It’s a pet butcher now” Name?

Or it is a new type of amenity, when you bring your pet, and they skin and butcher it, providing you with ready-to-cook dog meat.

How to entice users to produce Notes which are clearly understandable to others is whole another area of science, and it is a hard problem. We’re not very good at that even in area of reporting program bugs, where people are much more specialized and should be better informed.

@Fizzie-DWG

So as well as “What’s here now instead?” maybe also include “What’s the name of the new business?”?

It already does that. If you selected that it is now butcher, it will pop up a new quest asking for its name (and other quests for other information, like opening hours etc):

[burrscurr]

I have two suggestions for improvements.

Right now, the SC UI describes opening a note basically as a way for the user to get around an unanswerable quest, without clearly describing what a note is actually for:

You can leave a public note for other mappers to resolve at this location, or hide this quest for yourself only

I often come across notes that describe why the user couldn’t answer („its closed now“, „construction site“, …) and miss context on the underlying issue or what the user thinks should be done here. Notes should be opened to help fix/improve the underlying OSM data, and this should be clearer to a SC user unfamiliar with the OSM notes system. Perhaps something like this?

Leave a public note to help other mappers understand the situation here, or hide this quest for yourself only.

(Perhaps the term “note” should also be replaced with something like “report”?)

My second suggestion is to nudge the user more towards taking pictures. I often can’t resolve a note confidently because it is not sufficiently clear or lacks important context. Usually, pictures of the OTG situation help with that a lot. Would it be possible to default to taking pictures first, and then prompt the user to add text?

[InsertUser]

@Fizzie-DWG

However, one thing from SC, is that the Note is left directly on top of the mapped item, so that you can hardly see the existing icon: OpenStreetMap

It would be easier if it was slightly offset so you could easily click on the icon to be amended.

That sounds a bit like noting for the renderer to me.

@Fizzie-DWG

Note: 5225784 | OpenStreetMap says “there’s a path”, with a photo attached.

There is a way to record a gpx trace and attach it to a note, although the “Create new track recording” menu option doesn’t mention that there’s going to be a new note at the end of the process.

@Matija_Nalis

Perhaps, a first (or every?) time when Note functionality is used, it could show a information that for adding missing things one should prefer overlays – and where to find them)

The long press menu currently has three options:

• Create new note
• Create track recording
• Open location in a new app.

Perhaps if there were a fourth option for “something is missing here” it could turn on the things and places styles simultaneously and ask if they have now appeared? It could also say that those items can be shown manually by clicking on the stacked rhombus icon and choosing the relevant layer. Something similar is already done with the magenta ghosts that help you disambiguate the correct bench for a bench quest.

If possible, a circular wipe and animation emanating from^[1] the overlay button could help emphasise that the new icons have appeared “from” the overlays.

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1. and ‘returning’ to it at the end ↩︎

[qrisztly]

Re opening hours: I’m not a fan.

They change often and unless someone methodically keeps them updated they are often worthless, maybe even misleading.

[Matija_Nalis]

@burrscurr

[…] without clearly describing what a note is actually for:

You can leave a public note for other mappers to resolve at this location, or hide this quest for yourself only

I often come across notes that describe why the user couldn’t answer („its closed now“, „construction site“, …) and miss context on the underlying issue or what the user thinks should be done here. Notes should be opened to help fix/improve the underlying OSM data, and this should be clearer to a SC user unfamiliar with the OSM notes system. Perhaps something like this?

Leave a public note to help other mappers understand the situation here, or hide this quest for yourself only.

That sounds like a reasonable suggestion for change of that string, thanks!

If anybody has refinements to suggest on that text (would would help you to better understand what is wanted, while keeping it succinct), please do, and I’ll try to suggest such change in SC.

(my only worry is that not much people will read it and change their behaviour accordingly, but well, it wouldn’t hurt^[1] at least)

@burrscurr

My second suggestion is to nudge the user more towards taking pictures. I often can’t resolve a note confidently because it is not sufficiently clear or lacks important context. Usually, pictures of the OTG situation help with that a lot. Would it be possible to default to taking pictures first, and then prompt the user to add text?

While I fully agree about usefulness of the pictures, I’m less sure about this suggestion. SC already heavily suggests that (i.e. says “Adding a photo will make a note much more useful”), but taking pictures for notes is often problematic, especially if there might be people and/or private property around (“why are you taking pictures here??”), so many people (in my experience) feel uncomfortable with it (and others just can’t be bothered).

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1. apart from little extra translator effort, but that is fine IMHO ↩︎

[Matija_Nalis]

@InsertUser

@Fizzie-DWG

Note: 5225784 | OpenStreetMap says “there’s a path”, with a photo attached.

There is a way to record a gpx trace and attach it to a note, although the “Create new track recording” menu option doesn’t mention that there’s going to be a new note at the end of the process.

Yes, but it does not seems to be what happened here. Such Notes would clearly link to the GPS track in the Note text, like e.g. here.

SC does not tell the technicalities of what would happen, because that is a whole purpose of StreetComplete think – its users are not mostly not “regular OSM mappers” but uninitiated “normies” ^[1] who would have no idea about what the technicalities meant anyway.

@InsertUser

Perhaps if there were a fourth option for “something is missing here” it could turn on the things and places styles simultaneously and ask if they have now appeared?

SCEE has something similar with its Add POI functionality on long-press (it does full id-tagging-schema presenting, i.e. not split into Things vs. Places vs. unsupported)

IIRC that was suggested before, but not deemed good idea in SC. (I’d have to search for that discussion for details though, but I think it was deemed unwanted duplication and likely to be too crowded)

@InsertUser

Something similar is already done with the magenta ghosts that help you disambiguate the correct bench for a bench quest.

I think it would probably be very confusing for majority of StreetComplete target audience (remember: they’re not supposed to know anything about OSM, and are not expected to even technically savvy persons in general)

There is an suggestion to have an menu item there but which only provides help where to find the Overlays

But your suggestion does give birth to slightly similar idea – perhaps there could be a “Add a missing thing or place” on a long press, but which would only open an short explanation window telling user what Overlays are and how to reach them? Perhaps it might improve their discoverability enough?^[2]

Do you think that might be useful?

Edit: i.e. exactly as already suggested above by @flo2154 (and me reading the thread somewhat asynchronously^[3])

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1. no insult intended, just trying to explain the intended majority userbase ↩︎

2. but then, it is also (IMO) slightly ugly solution (i.e. everyone will always have it, not only novices whom it might help on first use) ↩︎

3. due to this being Discourse… grumble ↩︎