Broad undiscussed New England place name reclassification

ElliottPlack · 2024-04-24T12:34:56.280Z

@edops please take note of the message in your first warning:

The discussion has to happen in a suitable community medium BEFORE you make the edit.
edops blocked by woodpeck | OpenStreetMap

Five new changes:

Changeset: 150399846 | OpenStreetMap
Changeset: 150403110 | OpenStreetMap
Changeset: 150403267 | OpenStreetMap
Changeset: 150403852 | OpenStreetMap
Changeset: 150403957 | OpenStreetMap

Please hold off on these updates until consensus has been reached.

woodpeck · 2024-04-24T12:38:39.873Z

reverted, and edops blocked by woodpeck | OpenStreetMap

edops · 2024-04-24T12:52:04.081Z

Proven right yet again. There are no efforts by anyone to come up with a “consensus” all talk and no proposals. You’d rather spend your time halting progress than making any yourself. By what “consensus” was it decided that Brunswick should be reclassified as a city, despite it not being recognized as a city in any shape or form? I see no discussion about it here. And yet it’s only when I revert a town like Brunswick back to its original, and correct status, that edits are undone. It seems that other people needs a consensus and you don’t? How about instead of reverting those changes, you come up with a single, good reason why Brunswick, Maine should be classified as a city. I expect you won’t. I expect you revert changes that you don’t even pay attention to or understand in the slightest.

edops · 2024-04-24T12:54:49.048Z

I also find it amusing that you are from Maryland, yet you are trying to dictate the status of small towns in Maine that you clearly have no understanding about. Do some of your own research before mindlessly changing the status of small towns in Maine into cities.

edops · 2024-04-24T12:59:32.348Z

The standard that I must wait for a consensus that will never come to make changes that I have already provided evidence for being correct, does nothing but turn away editors who desire to make the map more accurate, while at the same time serving to decrease the quality and accuracy of the map itself. I think you’re all upset that someone came in and fixed all of the mistakes that you let sit stagnantly for who knows how long, and instead of accepting that the work you refused to do yourself was done for you, you instead undermine it by keeping the bulk of my work left alone, and making your own, incorrect changes and reclassifications to attach your own name to it.

Why don’t you go ahead, and undo all of my changes, and allow Maine to be flooded with hundreds of town labels, as it was before I fixed it. I’m starting to consider doing it myself, and leaving this pathetic excuse of a “community” behind to never fix it, because they never will.

ezekielf · 2024-04-24T13:16:24.297Z

edops:

The standard that I must wait for a consensus that will never come to make changes that I have already provided evidence for being correct

This is a misunderstanding. You must participate in building the consensus, not wait for it to arrive. Unlike many other things in OpenStreetMap, place classification is not a purely objective fact for which evidence of correctness can simply be provided.

As I’ve stated before, I am holding out hope that you can become a productive member of the OSM community. The general direction of your changes are good even if I don’t agree with some of the choices you’ve made. The problem is that you have marched across New England like a bulldozer upsetting the status quo. Other mappers do not take kindly to this kind of lone wolf behavior and it is a sure way to ensure your changes won’t stick around. I really do hope you’ll have a change of heart, but that seems less and less likely as it seems you prefer to continue insulting us.

ezekielf · 2024-04-24T13:27:33.958Z

edops:

There are no efforts by anyone to come up with a “consensus” all talk and no proposals.

The OpenStreetMap community certainly does love endless discussions . Criticism well taken. However this is simply the reality of a volunteer driven, self organizing, open data project. Discussion must be held to establish consensus. I understand this is frustrating. I’ve been frustrated by it myself, but unless you plan to somehow get yourself appointed dictator of OSM, there is no other way. Discussion is effort and it has been under way for a number of months. See the latest topic for proposals: Framework for aligning New England place nodes to census categories

ElliottPlack · 2024-04-24T16:21:04.170Z

edops:

I also find it amusing that you are from Maryland, yet you are trying to dictate the status of small towns in Maine

I am here as moderator and community member, not dictating the status of any towns. The community here, especially other locals in the New England area, can come up with a solution that works.

Ideally the meaning of city, town, etc. would be uniform across all of OSM so data users know what they are getting when using the data.

ZeLonewolf · 2024-04-25T01:43:10.436Z

Zeke Farwell:

this kind of lone wolf behavior

Heyyyyyy now!

stevea · 2024-04-25T07:25:08.388Z

Over the last ten, twelve, fourteen years or so, many OSM contributors in the USA have hammered out methods and guidelines we choose to assign values of both admin_level=* (2, 4, 6, 8 as nation, state, county, city/town is well-established, but the devil is in the details and there really, REALLY is more to it than that) and place= (city, town, village, hamlet). Especially in New England, this is difficult, partly for historical reasons, partly for linguistic, political and “that’s how people call things around here” reasons. (Which are often very hard-fought and colloquial, but may or may not have much basis / grounding in legal reality). It may be that “lots of people think that ought to be a town” (or village or hamlet…) but if one person can point to a statute or city charter or state constitutional article that states black-letter law, that can be (and has been) accepted as definitive in a particular case. We could use more of those, although they are hard to come by and don’t always break ties; ambiguity often seems to remain. Still, we get closer and closer, and that is the ideal, so let’s keep “getting closer” in that vein.

I, we here don’t expect everybody who contributes to the betterment of this to have absorbed the entire history of it, as watching sausage get made isn’t ever as tasty as the final product. But we’re well along the way of at least “roughing out” what we mean by [city, town, village, hamlet]. Yet we still have a ways to go, especially in New England, where there are both quirkinesses and idiosyncrasies in about three states, where the other 47 look at the results with “huh?” (Yet, all fifty states must be seen as unique, even as we share many similarities, too)…

As with any “argument” in OSM discussion channels (not as in a rancorous cat-fight of opinions, but of a civil dialog with points, counterpoints, evidence and good ideas and suggestions bolstered by reason), poo-pooing the process of consensus while indicating hostility and impatience with the process will doom your efforts faster than anything. Please offer reasons, evidence, law, history, fact-based data and you will have many listening ears here, and that is the beginning of consensus. Yes, it can be difficult to achieve, and for something like this will have “lumpiness,” regional differences that are simply inevitable. But, that’s the way these things have, do and will get solved in OSM.

Look for commonalities, “show your work,” and don’t assume that “what you know must be correct because I live here and therefore must know best.” Maybe. But, maybe not. OSM is most certainly a learning experience for absolutely everybody. Know-it-alls are not really welcome. Experts, who can support their views, hey, great. Know-it alls? Sorry, no.

This is hard, yes. But it is doable, too. Let’s give ourselves the time and space to tease it all apart. We’re going to take those anyway, so let’s just say we are and get that understood by any and all who want to contribute.

stevea · 2024-04-25T07:53:28.833Z

Uh-oh, double-post by me.

While it isn’t done, but it is evidence of much improvement over our decades, what if we took a state-by-state approach for [city, town, village, hamlet]? You’d be correct to accuse me of “loving a big table of the fifty states with row-by-row results…” but this approach HAS worked to achieve SOME consensus w.r.t. highway classifications, admin_level, public_lands classifications and more. I’m just spitballing here, but it could both work and be an explanation for sharp differences that might be seen (in renderers at particular zoom levels) across state boundaries.

Each state could be population-based (with numbers / thresholds different from here vs. there), “must have a grocery, post office and hardware store to be called a village,” some combination, or whatever.

Edit: This does toss out the window Elliott’s “ideal” that a town is a town is a town (everywhere), but that does seem like an almost unobtainable ideal. Still, I keep an open mind.

miela404 · 2024-04-25T14:51:16.657Z

In New England, the city tag should be limited to Micropolitan and Metropolitan areas. This includes large towns like Brunswick, and small cities like Waterville and Sanford. It does not, however, include towns that are called cities, such as Rockland or Presque Isle.

This is a fair compromise for the two sides, and has a third party definition to pull from.

www2.census.gov

NECTA_WallMap_Mar2020.pdf

ZeLonewolf · 2024-04-25T14:52:33.331Z

I think the issue there are places like South Burlington, which I think folks feel should NOT be a place=city.

miela404 · 2024-04-25T15:35:29.056Z

This is not a problem. Because Burlington is the more prominent city, it gets the label. The same way that, currently, South Portland doesn’t get the label because Portland is more prominent, and Auburn doesn’t get the label because Lewiston is more prominent.

ZeLonewolf · 2024-04-25T16:28:59.268Z

miela404:

This is not a problem. Because Burlington is the more prominent city, it gets the label. [… more examples …]

By that logic, let’s just tag all places place=city because label collision algorithms exist.

place= values are not just used for map rendering. There’s value in getting this right and not over- or under-classifying places for all sorts of use cases that you or I haven’t thought of.

The collection of places we tag place=city needs to at least be internally consistent to have data value. If a rule we create results in an outcome where the consensus view is that it’s wrong, then we came up with the wrong rule

ezekielf · 2024-04-25T17:12:29.449Z

miela404:

Because Burlington is the more prominent city, it gets the label. The same way that, currently, South Portland doesn’t get the label because Portland is more prominent, and Auburn doesn’t get the label because Lewiston is more prominent.

I agree in these cases but there are others where multiple cities in close proximity are all highly prominent/significant. Perhaps not in New England, but Minneapolis-St Paul, MN and San Francisco-Oakland, CA come to mind. Whatever guidelines we come up with should result in a single most prominent place=city for many/most urban areas while still allowing for multiple place=city nodes in some dual/tri/(quad?) city areas.

uk4sm · 2024-04-26T00:24:12.877Z

This is the only actual proposal anyone has posted on this discussion. Well done, @miela404, I’m all for it. If New Englanders refuse to go by population, this is the best thing for city classification. I would personally take it a step further, and make it metros only, but then rural states would only have one city (which isn’t a bad thing, but some people might not like it for their rural state).

Unless anyone comes up with something that is more logical than US Census classifications, this should be adopted, at least for New England.

clay_c · 2024-04-26T01:58:31.010Z

Thank you for deleting your more inflammatory comments, @uk4sm. Please take care to engage with the community in a more constructive manner going forward.

What you are referring to is not a proposal, but just an idea. A consensus process takes time. There is an ongoing discussion about classifying New England place names here—I encourage you to contribute to it.

uk4sm · 2024-04-26T03:05:13.855Z

Oh I didn’t delete them because they were inflammatory (they weren’t) I deleted them because people generally can’t take criticism, and when they do receive it, they turn on whoever criticised them. I’m more interested in coming to a solution, rather than being ignored for my critical comments, as @edops has been for theirs.

ezekielf · 2024-04-26T03:24:22.935Z

uk4sm:

I’m more interested in coming to a solution, rather than being ignored for my critical comments, as @edops has been for theirs.

Are you two and @miela404 all friends? Your communication styles are all quite similar…