Bring back Tag:industrial=machine_shop

dieterdreist · 2023-01-29T08:06:44.000Z

A machine shop is a “shop” as in workshop, not a “shop” as in a retail store selling machines or something crazy.

a shop=hairdresser is not selling hairdressers either

pyram · 2023-01-29T10:50:28.838Z

And you can’t buy a street at a “street sale (Straßenverkauf)”.

SomeoneElse · 2023-01-29T12:35:18.581Z

carlb:

For instance, a few days ago (on 24-25 Jan) they were edit-warring to blank Tag:workshop=repair_cafe - OpenStreetMap Wiki and replace it with a {{deprecated}} tag pointing to leisure=hackerspace which, again, doesn’t make sense.

Oh dear. That looks like a resurrection of a dispute between two OSMers who have a history of personal disputes, with fault on both sides. As that link suggests, the DWG are aware of that particular issue. I’m not dealing with it myself, but someone who is very familiar with the history of the dispute between these individuals is. For the avoidance of doubt, the DWG doesn’t normally get involved in wiki disputes but sometimes does when they spill over from the “real world” of OSM editing (as has happened a couple of times with these two individuals in the past).

Andy, from the DWG

Mammi71 · 2023-01-29T16:18:10.861Z

carlb:

For instance, a few days ago (on 24-25 Jan) they were edit-warring to blank Tag:workshop=repair_cafe - OpenStreetMap Wiki and replace it with a {{deprecated}} tag pointing to leisure=hackerspace which, again, doesn’t make sense. A hacker space or maker space can be used to create new things, while a repair café only fixes existing, broken things. Not the same beast.

but repair=assisted_self_service is also not always the same as a workshop=repair_cafe

SomeoneElse · 2023-01-29T16:41:15.905Z

My personal opinion is that there almost as many varieties of this sort of thing as there are the things themselves, so It’d be silly to police the wiki to try and enforce certain sorts of tagging.

Let people tag what they want; data consumers will sort out out.

dieterdreist · 2023-01-30T13:27:17.000Z

Let people tag what they want; data consumers will sort out out.

+1, this is generally a good advice.

Adamant1 · 2023-01-30T18:22:15.265Z

dieterdreist:

Let people tag what they want; data consumers will sort out out.

I don’t really feel like getting into the issues with RTFM because it’s a separate thing. I say though that there’s obviously a difference between letting people tag what they want and telling them how to tag something.

In the meantime no one being half good faithed about this would disagree that the Wiki is suppose to be descriptive, not prescriptive. In this particular for whatever reason Carlb thinks it should be the former, that if we just insert a 1/1 copy of the dictionary defining of a machine shop that people will somehow magically follow it and the tag will be consistently used. That’s obviously not how it works though.

In the meantime I’ve spent a ton of time researching this and similar tags. The fact is that none of them are being used consistently or as intended. It’s rather dishonest to act like that’s not the case or treat this all we need to do is follow a Wikipedia article for the tag to be used properly, whatever that means. It’s rather insulting to treat me like I’m just inserting factually-wrong information into articles and somehow harming the project in the process when I’ve the one whos spent the time and effort researching this and Carlb is self-admittedly a infrequent user who is mostly ignorant of details.

Sure, I have a long-term dispute with RTFM. So do a lot of other people. That doesn’t mean that this is just a petty dispute between me and him or that I didn’t put in the time to understand what I was doing and why I was doing it before I made the edits. I can guarantee the same can’t be said for RTFM, the dude could literally give a crap about how tags are actually being. His version of “documenting” tags is simply him saying what his personal opinions are and then accusing everyone who disagree with him of being retarded trolls. I’m not doing that. Every edit I make is based on research and a lot of thought. Carlb even said he just got involved in this and doesn’t contribute much. So why not give me the benefit of the doubt about it? Or think what you want about me, but at least put the time into finding something else that actually works and will be used consistently. That’s all I really care about.

Adamant1 · 2023-01-30T19:47:29.540Z

carlb:

Tag:industrial=machine_shop is marked as “deprecated” on the pretext that " The recommended replacement is:Tag:man_made=works + Key:product =* ." which makes no sense as (b) and (a) are different concepts.

As I’ve said like 4 times now the reason I marked it that way is because the term “machine shop” is ambiguous and the tag is being used on a range of different objects that seem to have nothing in common. Except some of them can clearly be better tagged as Tag:man_made=works + Key:product =*. So that was what I choose as the alternative at the time. I’m sure there’s other tags out that would work better. I don’t really give care about what specific tag the POIs are ultimately re-tagged as. The important thing is not using Tag:industrial=machine_shop as an ambiguous catch all, which I don’t see you having a solution to.

carlb:

I propose that Tag:industrial=machine_shop be un-deprecated and put back into use where (b) the services of the machine shop are being marketed directly instead of (a) the machine shop being captive and integral to a factory’s making its own product

That’s one of the ways it’s currently being used though and I don’t think doing a simple copy paste into the article of what Wikipedia says about machine shops into the article is going to magically correct the problem or make people use the tag how you think they be using it. The problem here is that in general parlance a machine shop can be anything from your average backyard garage with a table saw, some random screw bits, and a few pieces of wood, to warehouse where a college holds it’s mechanics class, and more industrial sized factories that produce prototypes or whatever. It’s the same problem with “workshop shop” BTW.

You can’t get over that just by re-writing the article and trying to police people into using your definition either. The tags are fundamentally flawed. There’s also already much less flawed alternatives out there that are perfectly fine to use instead. Key:product =* being one. I’m sure there’s others. There’s no legitimate reason not to just them instead of this either.

yvecai · 2023-01-30T21:14:28.762Z

Adamant1:

The problem here is that in general parlance a machine shop can be anything from your average backyard garage with a table saw, some random screw bits, and a few pieces of wood, to warehouse where a college holds it’s mechanics class, and more industrial sized factories that produce prototypes or whatever.

It is not a problem, in my opinion, on the contrary the general parlance as you say makes it a good tag: you just described what I understand is a “machine shop”.

SomeoneElse · 2023-01-30T21:59:03.454Z

Adamant1:

no one being half good faithed about this would disagree that the Wiki is suppose to be descriptive, not prescriptive. In this particular for whatever reason Carlb thinks it should be the former

No. That simply isn’t an accurate representation what was said above.

Yes, you have a dispute with RTFM (as noted above). Both of you are culpable in that dispute.

However, your last edit to this wiki page was here. That contains the text “The recommended replacement is: man_made=works + product=machinery.” which I mentioned above simply makes no sense.

Personally I believe that the wiki would form better documentation for everyone if you didn’t edit it. For completeness’ sake, RTFM’s only contribution to this page was this, mentioning some tags that they considered similar; not a huge contribution to the problem here.

Adamant1 · 2023-01-31T01:14:20.907Z

SomeoneElse:

which I mentioned above simply makes no sense.

It makes sense in places where the tag is being used on places that could or would be better tagged as “man_made=works + product=machinery.” Of course you would think it doesn’t make sense in general though because 1. You didn’t look into how the tag is being ahead of time before forming an opinion about it 2. As the second part of your part comment makes clear, you just seem to have an issue with everything I do for some reason regardless of what the facts are or who’s actually correct. that’s not my problem though and it has nothing to do with the particulars of this specific disagreement.

Does that mean every single instance of industrial=machine_shop should be re-tagged as “man_made=works + product=machinery”? No of course not. Just a good portion of the ones I looked into. I never claimed otherwise either, but that’s how the Wiki works. Someone creates an article for a fringe tag. Someone else comes along, researches it, finds out it’s a bad tag for some reason (like there’s better alternatives) and either depreciates the article or adds a “disputed” banner to it. That happens all the time. I’m sorry you have such an issue with me doing the normal process that literally everyone else does in the exact same situations though. Sorry dude. Maybe stop with the bad faith axe grinding

SomeoneElse:

Personally I believe that the wiki would form better documentation for everyone if you didn’t edit it.

Cool for you. I believe the platform in general would be better if every discussion involving me, you, and a couple of other users didn’t turn into personal attacks and axe grinding. That never seems to happen for some reason though because certain people including you love to attack me for extremely biennial, run of the mill editing. So it is what it is.

In the meantime, I don’t even edit the Wiki that much and most or all of the edits I do are extremely none controversial. Essentially the only person I have an issue with is RTFM. In this case, you can look at most of the edits I’ve made around him and either other people made exactly the same edits I did before I made them or they reverted his edits back to how I had edited the articles before him. So I really could give a crap what your opinion about it is.

If you don’t like that I reverted RTFM on the DE:Tag:shop=variety_store article though, cool. Mateusz Konieczny made the exact same edit I did and I don’t see anyone having an issue with it. Same goes for a bunch of other articles where users reverted the same exacts edits I did. I’m the only one who anyone seems to care about when I do it for some reason Mateusz Konieczny, Jeisenbe, and a few other people spent years edit waring RTFM and no one ever batted an eye about it though, including you. So sorry, but I don’t really care what your opinion is about how I edit the Wiki.

Adamant1 · 2023-01-31T01:19:47.554Z

yvecai:

It is not a problem, in my opinion, on the contrary the general parlance as you say makes it a good tag: you just described what I understand is a “machine shop”.

That’s fine. I’m glad you think it’s a good tag. In no way does depreciating a tag or marking it as controversial make it so people can’t continue using it if they want to. Although there is a point where if a tag is to ambiguous in how it’s being applied it loses it’s usefulness for the general Openstreetmap community writ-large. Especially in cases where there are 1/1 better tags that can be applied to POIs, which in this case there obviously are. Nothing is stopping you from using the tag if you want to do though. Like I said in my last message, all I was doing by depreciating the tag was following the same process everyone else does in similar situations. Of course it’s just a recommendation and like I’ve said other places I’m more then willing to discuss a better way forward or do things differently if there is no consensus to depreciate the tag. I never claimed otherwise either.

But that doesn’t negate the fact that the tag loses it’s usefulness compared to the alternatives if it’s being used on a wide range of different objects that don’t have anything in common. Apparently no one wants to discuss that though, which is fine. Honestly, I could really give a crap about this beyond the original edits. At the end of the day people are going to do what they want. Just like people are going to mark an article as controversial or depreciated if the tag is ambiguous and there’s better ones out there.

I’ll meet people like @SomeoneElse half way and say there’s probably a conversation that could be had about when that should or shouldn’t be done, but at this point there isn’t really any guideline or policy about it and I have better things to do then be the one to start the discussion. If someone else (a person, not @SomeoneElse) wants to start a separate thread or something about it, be my guest. I’m more then happy to follow whatever consensus comes out of it. In the meantime I’m going to edit the Wiki however I feel like editing it though

SomeoneElse · 2023-01-31T09:35:40.224Z

Adamant1:

You didn’t look into how the tag is being ahead of time before forming an opinion

Of course I did. Usage that I looked at was very regionally dependent (as to be expected from an article that was only a stub) and was split between “small engineering organisations” (in Germany they’d be part of the Mittelstand) and a specific engineering function within a larger organisation. The vast majority were not really “product=machinery” in any real sense.

dieterdreist · 2023-01-31T09:54:44.000Z

on a side note, the term “Mittelstand” is typically used for businesses with up to 500 employees and 50 million EUR sales revenue, so many of these are not really “small”, but they aren’t huge enterprises either.

SomeoneElse · 2023-01-31T10:06:18.049Z

dieterdreist:

“Mittelstand” is typically used for businesses with up to 500 employees and 50 million EUR sales revenue

I’m not German, but isn’t it more about how they fit into society generally, and in the case of engineering places, how they fit into the wider manufacturing ecosystem?

dieterdreist · 2023-01-31T10:23:40.000Z

the term has implications (you’d eventually expect family ownership, a “responsible” company with tradition and values, etc., although I think nobody would be surprised if they hadn’t any values apart from profit). Many of them fit into the manufacturing ecosystem as subcontractors / suppliers for bigger companies, and/or may be producing specialized goods or services.

Here’s a nice graphic from wikipedia about the relation with society, but it is a hundred years old now:

480×836 151 KB

If you want to include small companies, the usual term is “KMU” (kleine und mittlere Unternehmen).

There is also the term “Mittelschicht”, which is about the middle of society, neither poor nor rich, and may not only be read as refering to economic wealth but also intellectual capital/education level (en: middle class, roughly).

Adamant1 · 2023-01-31T17:56:32.771Z

SomeoneElse:

Usage that I looked at was very regionally dependent (as to be expected from an article that was only a stub) and was split between “small engineering organizations”

That’s fine. The article/tag isn’t really about mapping “small engineering organizations” though. It specifically has to do with supposedly mapping “A place where a variety of parts are machined for different companies.” I think the fact that all you could come up with when you looked into the usage was “Regionally dependent, small engineering organizations” just proves my point that the tag is ambiguous and being used as a catch all on places that aren’t specifically machining parts.

In the meantime there’s already man_made=works for industrial manufacturing plants, which this tag is undermining. Like take Gearbox Group. They manufacture automotive parts. Why tag them as industrial=machine_shop in that case instead of man_made=works + product=automative_parts or whatever? Sure, as @SomeoneElse else says they are a “small engineering organization", but then it that doesn’t have anything to do with why product=* as an alternative to industrial=machine_shop makes no sense like he’s claiming. At least in the case of Gearbox Group man_made=works + product=automative_parts seems perfectly reasonable.

There’s plenty of other examples, Zagar Inc produces spindles. Why not use man_made=works + product=spindles there instead of industrial=manchine_shop?

Heck, take somewhere like King Machine Works & Powder Coating. They coat cars. It’s not even a place that machines parts.

There’s Hawboldt Industries. Currently tagged as industrial=machine_shop. They produce deck equipment. Again, not a parts machining place and there’s zero reason they can’t or shouldn’t be tagged as man_made=works + product=decks or whatever instead.

So aside from them being “small engineering organizations”, why exactly would tagging any of those places as man_made=works + product=* be nonsense? How exactly are places that manufacture decks or spindles machine shops?

SekeRob · 2023-02-02T20:10:20.092Z

Seconding the re-instating and thank you for telling of the English value “machine_shop” being there, currently use is 541 times industrial=machine_shop (soon there will be more), 10x craft=machine_shop (I like that one too) and 8 times machine_shop=* with 6 different values including meat grinder.

Adamant1 · 2023-02-03T06:15:47.654Z

SekeRob:

craft=machine_shop (I like that one too)

“Machine shop” isn’t a craft. Machining might be, but machine shop? Nope. Have fun with the ridiculously needless and obtuse tag fragmentation though.

Kovoschiz · 2023-02-04T10:28:07.611Z

The majority of craft= are locations (=bakery) or jobs (=carpenter), not the craftsmanship (=metal_construction). Have fun with your view of the “ridiculously needless and obtuse tag fragmentation”. Other crafting can involving machining; does mean they are a “machine shop”.