Amazon logistics verstößt gegen die Guidelines


Ich zitiere, leider ist keine Version in Deutsch vorhanden:

Edit: Wulf4096 hat mir den Link zur deutschen Version gezeigt. Habe es entsprechend angepasst.

Ich finde keine:

  • #hashtags in den CS
  • Links zu den Daten Quellen und nicht Standardwerkzeugen

Die Beschreibung der Aktivität ist sehr dürftig. Braucht es da nicht eher mehrere einzelne für jedes Projekt?


Habe keine Stellungsnahme von Amazon im dem Thread gefunden.

Wo ist die offizielle Ankündigung?
Im Wiki ist kein Link:

Da hapert es an allen Ecken und Enden, was sowohl die Reaktionszeit als auch die Antwort aller Fragen angeht.

Bis gestern waren auf den user Seiten lediglich eine externe Emailadresse angegeben. Schon dazu brauchten sie eine Aufforderung.

Nur MapWithAI hat #hashtag und Link. Die aller meisten CS sind in keiner Weise als Amazon Edits ersichtlich. Vom individuellen Task mal ganz abgesehen.

Ok, scheiß auf Regeln, schauen wir auf die Änderungen und Ihre Aussagen.

Warum sind dann die Änderungen auch in Frankreich, Italien, der Schweiz und sonst wo?

Warum finde ich dann in den CS keine Angaben zu Quellen? Mal von imagery_used abgesehen.
Schon allein zum Auffinden der individuellen Task braucht es doch mehr als nur imagery.

Der “2. Ebene” review scheint nicht zu funktionieren. Wie ist sein Aufbau?

Warum wechseln die Personen dauernd die Lokalität anstatt sich mit den Gegebenheiten einer Region vertraut zu machen und in dieser dann alle Tasks abzuarbeiten.

Freue mich auf eine Anwort in deutscher Sprache von Amazon logistics. Bei dem Titel des Threads sollte es dazu ja keiner Einladung mehr bedürfen.

So genug der Worte jetzt seid Ihr dran.

Grüße skyper

Danke, habe es angepasst. Bei der OSMF gibt es keine Links auf die deutsche Übersetzung.

Hi skyper,

My name is Jothirnadh and I lead the OSM community engagement activities for Amazon. Thanks for your inputs and putting forward your queries. Since you initiated the discussion multiple locations (changeset comments, Amazon logistics wiki page and Germany OSM forum) I will try to answer them all together over here.

Our team already started working on including a #hastag in the CS and will get back by 09/11. This was also informed to us by Alex Hennings but due to unpredicted circumstances of COVID19 we were not able to make the change earlier. Please give us some time to get this implemented.

We only use publicly available resources like iD editor, RapidID editor and OSMCha for editing or reviewing data in OSM. Also, all the data source links used while editing were captured by iD editor which can be seen in every changeset added. In case if a private imagery is used for editing, we explicitly mention that in our sources as well and make sure to follow ODBL licensing norms.

Back in 2018 when Amazon started editing for the first time, we were not aware of the OSM editing norms. But from the inputs of local community members we developed the wiki page and started keeping our editing process transparent. While I agree our team made mistakes, but learnt from the mistakes and tried our best to add high quality data to OSM.

We made sure processes are in place for editors to respond to changeset comments within 24hrs time apart from weekends or holidays.

You should not be requiring any invitation or permission for dropping a mail at “”. Please do let me know if you are facing any issues.

#MapwithAI is explicitly used for the roads added using Facebook AI detections. As mentioned earlier, once the #hashtag is implemented, we will add that hashtag as a part of Facebook AI edits as well.

In 2018 we started editing in France, Italy and Spain but soon stopped editing in these geographies. I personally made this change recently in our wiki page removing France, Italy and Spain since we are not actively mapping anymore.

The sources used change from changeset to changest and we mention all the sources used as a part of the changeset itself. This feature is an integral part of iD editor itself and you can find it in all our changesets. There might be few edge cases where the sources were not captured due to internet issues while uploading data to OSM.

All the edits made by editors were reviewed for secondary check in 24hrs time. In case of data errors, we give feedback to the editor and make them fix it by themselves. While #hastag was not part of our workflow as of now so it was not identified as wrong in the review process. Once it is implemented it will be considered as a part of review check process as well.

Our editors edit across Germany since the traffic rules were the same. While Germany being a very well mapped country, we didn’t come across missing roads in single location to work consistently.

Sorry I am not familiar with German, but use publicly available translators to understand the statements in English. It worked very well in the past while communicating with Germany OSM community members

Happy to join a call and answer all your queries if that makes it more simpler to walk you through our editing process.



I think this has reached a point where Amazon Logistics will have to restrict edits in Germany to employees/contractors who speak German and are familiar with Germany. One of the cases being discussed here - - not only seems to clearly disprove Amazon’s claims of using “ground truth” for every edit, but is also a problem that could and would have been avoided by someone with the necessary skills, as information about the bypass is readily available and was also mentioned in the edit history.

Also, while many German mappers will be willing and able to discuss issues in English, this is not something that is reasonable to expect. Certainly mappers in Germany don’t mind the occasional tourist fixing things, but if it is an ongoing commercial effort, you should be talking to people in their language and not exclude those who don’t (or aren’t confident enough to) write English. This applies to changeset discussions, forum discussions, and Wiki pages alike.

Please also understand that the organised editing policy explicitly says that “Discussions should not be moved from a public venue to a private conversation unless they concern personal matters”; your offer of taking things out of the public forum and discussing them in a private call might be well-intended, but it would considerably weaken the community if organised editors were to pick out individual community members and have private discussions with them.


Come one no one is speaking German what a shame!

I asked a lot more question. Please answer all questions from each changeset comment. All in English and at least the ones on your wiki page’s discussion page should be trustfully answered.

Why do you still change data with all the problems and do not first fix them? Please, you know what a shutdown is?

As it makes no sense to write in English on the German forum I stop right now.



Warum hat eigentlich niemand darauf reagiert? Ihr nehmt ja sonst nicht das Blatt vor den Mund?

Wie sieht das mit den anderen großen Organisationen aus?
Haben wir da das gleiche Dilemma und alle schauen weg?

Grüße skyper

Apologies for the wrong edit made by our team members end. Our editor had looked into the edit history before making the edit where it only showcased changeset instead of the actual deleted changeset and led to mis-interpretation. Please consider it as an individual mistake and give him an opportunity to learn.

Thanks for this input, will work with my internal team in getting this implemented.

Apologies if the message was interpreted in a wrong way. My only intention was to make it more transparent to skyper since he raised the queries and nothing else. Will continue to communicate in the forum itself for better visibility to larger group.

Posting responses for the queries raised in

I take the complete responsibility to keep the page updated with information.” is the open channel for all communications.

We are responding to all forum discussions within 24hrs unless it is a weekend or a holiday since 2019. In 2018, we were not aware of such platforms so didn’t participate in discussion, but post inputs from forum, we are regularly engaging in discussions.

We do communicate via changeset discussions, Forum discussions or “” mail discussions.

Apologies if something went really wrong due to our edits. But apart from the changeset none of the changesets commented had a data error. Having top-notch data quality is our first rule of thumb because this data is also used by our delivery partners who might end up into accidents if a wrong information is added.

As mentioned earlier, every query should get a response within 24hrs with an update on actual resolution.

I personally update it if any new developments happen.

Sorry, I didn’t get this question. Which tag are you talking about?

If an edit is made today, the immediate next day the changeset gets cross verified for the following inputs:

  1. If the nodes are connected appropriately to parent road or not
  2. Did the editor check all the latest available resources in OSM
  3. Did editors delete any previously added community information wrongly
  4. Is the edit made following all OSM wiki guidelines

Basically in second level check we do a re-audit of complete edit and take a call. If in case the editor made a mistake, we ask him to make corrections accordingly within next 24hrs.

Our internal audit comments were not posted as changeset comments. Do you think it is a good idea for same organisation to have public discussion?

Can you give specific examples on when they didn’t follow the own rules?

We tried to find the edit history from our editors and identified it to be started from 2018. I don’t think there is any reason to hide the start date. From the beginning, the only intention of Amazon was to share the information we had that can benefit the larger OSM community and work towards the betterment of OSM.

We only use the publicly available OSM resources. There were only two instances where we used private information, but that too well discussed with the community members and taken a call. Please refer to the following discussions for more context:

I didn’t get the question, can you please elaborate.

As mentioned above, once the #hashtag is implemented, will make sure to add it as a part of the comment to make it different from other edits.

What is this search term. Didn’t get your query.

I didn’t answer to individual changeset comments since all of the changeset comments stated the same information as discussed above. Tried my best to respond to all the questions. I didn’t understand few questions where I posted my queries. Please let me know if I missed anything.


How will you prevent similar situations? Note in this region you always need at least three to four different backgrounds and some knowledge about changes in infrastructure. It is not primary the fault of the individual user but the broken system behind it and the missing up to date ground source.

So no, an external email address is not a solution.

Please, do not mix channels. Answer the questions in the wiki in the wiki. This discussion is to messy.

What did you do the last year?

Did not find the archive where can I find it?

This is just a lie, I had to point you to the discussion and it took almost 48 hours. Who can I trust your words?

I find and handful discussions about problem with you employees’ edits without any comment. Just take a look at yours employees’ changeset without an answer to proof you wrong.

No apology for breaking your own rules and words on your wiki page. No apology about simply not doing you job. How can I trust your words? How will you take care that all your employees are aware of its content and follow it?

What happens if not? Why did I have to block a user and it took over 24hr after the block to get a response?

So, you had no changes in employees since the middle of May?

You need some intelligence to google “request review osm”!

How do you know the correct date of each tile of the imagery? I am really interested cause I do not get it from most sources?

If the area did not change the latest is often of bad quality. Where is the check for the best quality? You need more than only one imagery to approve many changes.

Why are missing sources not commented? The OSM wiki guidelines include that you follow your rules and the rules of the OSMF. Why do the reviewer not react if e.g. source are only imageries but access tags are changed?

If it is about the edit, why not? Something like “Nice job, well done” will do.

If the edit needs to be criticized, I want to see the critics from the reviewer on the cs. How do I know that the reviewer already did the job without a comment? The user can than post the link to the update CS in a comment, too. That is open and transparent.

How about the ground source issue? Every one of your employees should know your rules, e.g. every editor did break it and every reviewer did break it as the source is missing in the cs.

How about not deleting content but updating. A simple sentence like "we were editing in … from … to is enough.

No words about imagery there. I am talking about this:

Are you kidding me. Do you know the content of your own wiki page? How about this paragraph:

So are you waiting for the solution and did you stop all your editors, as now, you can not say that you did not know.

Do you want to fool me ? Just search for “search term” on the page. Is it really too difficult?

It is clearly stated in the guidelines that you have to answer on the same channel. Why do you not follow the rules?

Now it is your job to bring this all to the discussion page on your wiki page.

Have fun

I strongly disagree. Knowledge of a language should not be a barrier to contribute. Anyone can translate English or any other language to his language easily nowadays. From what I have seen, Amazon has been doing a good job in their organized editing and jguthula has been always super responsive. I won’t involve myself any more in this thread because it has become somewhat unconstructive.

I agree with WestNordOst.
I have currently no problems with contributions of amazon mappers.

Questions get answered and issued solved in some time.
Also english is not a big problem in Germany and established as international language in changeset comments all over the world in OSM.

The conversation could be more friendly.

But not my decision or problem …

[put on moderator cap]

@Skyper: The tone of your posts (e.g. #11) ist not only unconstructive towards reaching a result but crosses the border to insults several times. (e.g. You need some intelligence to google “request review osm”!) Regardless of your feelings on the object of discussion, please refrain from using such an offensive tone here in the forum. Everything you are saying can be perfectly well expressed in neutral terms. Take a deep breath, calm down and watch your tone in further posts. If you should fall back into more insults, you might receive a temporary ban.

[moderator cap off]

Ich finde es nicht richtig, dass meine korrekte Aussage, dass ein wenig Intelligenz für mache Sachen gebraucht wird hier angemahnt wird. Glatte Lügen aber ohne Kommentar durchgehen.

Es ist doch immerhin eine Fremdsprache, da kann mache Formulierung dann auch ein bisschen wage sein
Wo bleibt da die Forderung nach der richtigen Sprache im deutschsprachigen Forum?

Und dazu dass hier mich jemand offensichtlich abspeisen will und sich nicht wirklich Zeit nimmt die Fragen zu beantworten, sagt hier auch niemand was.

Es gibt in den Forumsregeln keine Forderung danach, dass hier nur auf Deutsch geschrieben wird.
Das Forum selbst heißt außerdem “Germany” und nicht “Deutsch”.

Wo es sinnvoll ist, können wegen mir gerne andere Sprachen genutzt werden. Ich sehe hier so einen sinnvollen Fall, da jguthula sehr gutes Englisch schreibt, aber als Inder mutmaßlich kein oder nur wenig Deutsch kann. Deutsche hingegen sprechen sehr häufig einigermaßen bis gut Englisch, zumal das auch die “offizielle” Sprache in OSM ist. Die Verständigung auf Englisch dürfte somit einfacher und sinnvoller sein als auf Deutsch, wo in jedem Fall ein Online-Übersetzer nötig wäre.

Also haltet euch bitte nicht an der Sprache auf sondern klärt die Sachfragen :wink:

Da die Diskussion zum größten Teil in Englisch geführt wird, bin ich seit dem ersten englischsprachigen Beitrag raus. Dazu sind meine Englischkenntnisse einfach zu spärlich. Es ist mir schlicht zu anstrengend, die dazu notwenige Übersetzungsarbeit zu leisten. Ich finde es insofern auch nicht gut, wenn im deutschsprachigen Forumsteil eine Diskussion in englischer Sprache geführt wird, weil dies alle diejenigen ausschließt, die über keine ausreichenden Englischkenntnisse verfügen. Dies sollte meiner Meinung nach auch von den zuständigen Moderatoren entsprechend vertreten werden.


Natürlich ist es nicht verboten, auch in diesem Forumsteil eine Diskussion in einer anderen als der deutschen Sprache zu führen. Man nimmt dann aber auch in Kauf, dass sich der Kreis der Mitdiskutierer deutlich reduziert.

Da ich sonst ein aktiver Diskussionsteilnehmer bin, war es mir an dieser Stelle der Diskussion wichtig, zu erläutern, dass es kein Desinteresse meinerseits am Thema ist, sondern das schlichtweg die Sprachbarriere für mich zu hoch ist, um hier mit vertretbaren Aufwand mitzureden, und dass ich davon ausgehe, dass es auch anderen ebenso geht.

jguthula ist aber kein Hobbymapper, sondern jemand, der von seinem Arbeitgeber - einer der Firmen mit dem weltweit höchsten Börsenwert, mit weit über 500.000 Mitarbeitern weltweit, Angestellte von Outsourcing-Firmen nicht mitgerechnet - ausgewählt wurde, um die Arbeit dieser Firma bei OSM in Deutschland mit der deutschen Community zu diskutieren. Wenn diese Firma entweder nicht willens oder nicht in der Lage ist, jemand für diese Tätigkeit auszuwählen, der deutsch kann, dann läuft da doch etwas ganz grundlegend schief. Das ist doch etwas ganz anderes, als wenn hier ein australischer Wanderer auftaucht und auf Englisch fragt, wie er einen Schnapspfad taggen soll.

Es ist für Amazon ganz bestimmt nicht unmöglich, das Mapping und die Diskussionen in Deutschland von Mappern durchführen zu lassen, die deutsch können. Es ist höchstens ein bisschen schwieriger. Aber wenn jemand diese kleine Hürde nicht nimmt, welche anderen Hürden nimmt er dann auch alle nicht, und wollen wir diese Beiträge dann überhaupt noch?

Ich betone nochmal, hier geht es nicht um die Frage, ob alle, die in Deutschland mappen wollen, Deutsch können müssen. Das müssen sie nicht. Aber wenn eine Firma in Deutschland kontinuierlich organisiertes Mapping betreibt, mit Dutzenden von Angestellten, die Tausende von Changesets hochladen, dann gelten da doch andere Maßstäbe.