In the past, I did provide @woodpeck with evidences to resolve the conflict. After months we still had no response and in the mean time ex tomolobla started changing account because I was recovering the elements with evidences. That procedure didn’t work out for me in this conflict and I need to precise that for three years this impacted badly my health.
Indeed I went this far with a video because he is posting misplaced photos, they constitute misinformation. On the note with the photo (now deleted but I save dit), M!dgard had intervened and talked about the video showing the bridge. Yet Kugelbaum stated there is only a “plank” further East. Going from the location of that plank, up to where he shot his photo without seeing the bridge seems impossible to me. In my opinion it was intentionally since from the track it is already visible, also on my video).
I find this behavior rather being nefarious. With all due respect to your POV, I think he is the one creating conflict because he stands against what is real and OSM relies on observations of reality.
To me, I could spotted him right away maybe because i’ve been on this for 3 years. @M_dgard confirmed me that Kugelbaum is the same person. He has been doing this since I’ve been restoring his deletions with evidences on the changesets or because a DWG member blocked him.
As you can see on Kugelbaum’s account, he has been editing since 30 Nov. 2023. I would like to warn the DWG of his activity but we were both asked to come here and discuss this issue instead of contacting them, otherwise we could be blocked. I agree up to a certain point that we can try to deal with an issue community wise, but if it goes on and on like this has been for 3 years, it’s up to the DWG to get on their responsibilities or us to convince them to do so.
Hi everyone, finally chiming in because of the victim card being played a taaad too much whilst twisting many things. I’ll show you my viewpoint (without direct links due to 3link limit).
First off, Kugelbaum has not deleted or deactivated a single forest track/path without posting a street complete photo-note. Unfortunately limited to 1 photo as 1+ it tends to crash. These were/are fun 20+km long hikes.
Yes, deleting the bridge was a big mistake, that I’ve now fixed. GPS pointed me to the weir, I had already uploaded the note without seeing the bridge/plank around the corner and without a passable way on the other side I didn’t find it necessary to have the bridges/planks being rendered.
Ok, so as stated in some dwg blocks, S has himself avoided bans by using his Digital-line account, created straight after the first block in 2017. S has a particular recognizable style but here is recent spelling mistake proof: node 11197289323 history node 4153064655 history No-more-anger is another one No-more-anger blocked by woodpeck | OpenStreetMap. Amongst some other I have suspicions on but for the sake of errors and insulting somebody wrongfully, I don’t post them publicly.
Definition time: For me a track/path should be rendered on the map if it is crossable at least on foot, so if it isn’t permanently full of high weeds, saplings of considerable size, or tons of branches from old wood cutting. It has to be distinguishable from the ground because otherwise we can just go straight through the forest. We also can’t map every forestry track that has ever been in use, and miight become used again in a few years, because otherwise there is no wood but only tracks visible. I use and edit maps so I know where to walk or cycle.
S regularly explodes when somebody removes ways that end up not existing at all or being impassable for most people. Second guessing everything to his favour, not trusting any other mapper who has actually been on the place itself. Examples: (I don’t maintain a list, so keeping it short.)
changeset 102199648
way 603101581 history
changeset 124929084
Other mapper’s who regularly find inexisting ways but stay rather quiet because they know why:
changeset 145249532 (“It’s not the first time S has created a way that doesn’t exist.”)
changeset 131245821
See also this person’s findings: user Khushaldas%20Badhan notes
I am trying to say this rather neutrally, S is mostly a second guesser not mapping from surveys. (You only need to check the changeset times.) Combining very thin, unreliable Strava heatmap lines with shading in lidar hillshade, doesn’t work without going on the ground. Of course there will be heatmap activity on inexisting mapped ways because people unbeknown get routed over them and then actively look for them on the ground. Important: While recording to Strava. One of my key criticism: S doesn’t think of the people who upload to Strava when they get lost in the forest or shortcut straight through it off real tracks/paths. How many do you think correct their gpx recording files, let alone know how to do it? Not talking about problematic MTB groups building temporary illegal trails that can massively heat up the heatmap. (I also MTB myself, don’t see it as hate on an activity group.)
Then there’s things like mapping wood harvester trails straight from fresh imagery of recently cut forests. From experience I can tell that these are sooo often overgrown instantly and full of impassable wood/branches left to rot.
I have written this trying to balance the thread out. Knowing full well I will never ever be able to convince S who seems to have an obsession with many contributors that is truly, utterly scary. I am sure he has good intentions deep down somewhere but he’s not objective at all, missing the big picture and it seems he just can’t work with other humans.
I make no secret about having a strong suspicion on soon seeing perma bans. Yes, plural.
That said, there is more than these stupid forest ways that I’d love to be able to complete in my home grounds.
Congrats on reading this far.
I don’t know what made you conclude this, but I certainly did not intend to confirm this, since I haven’t checked. Edit: since I reached out to Kugelbaum too, and reported that he replied, it was indeed most likely to be the same person. I do object to this wording though. You make it seem like I did or knew more than I did.
(For the record: I am not a member in this conflict, only a mediator trying to work with humans who are in conflict.)
Thank you so much for your post! Please keep reading, I could demonstrate how Kugelbaum made me responsible for a mistake that himself made (my paragraph with Screenshot of reverted changeset 96931968) and how his claims are biased.
Photos that obviously you misplace conveniently while shooting unrelated objects.
Digital-line is another contributor since 2017 i know personally. It happened we contributed at the same moment with different JOSM versions.
Him 2023.09.13 at 13:16 and 2023.09.13 at 13:05
Me 2023.09.13 at 13:19 and 2023.09.13 at 13:08
Pitty we don’t have access to IP logs to show we are from different countries…
No-more-anger is indeed an account I had created, but I don’t use it really, it has only 14 edits. I created it because I found it unfair that woodpeck blocked me whereas I gave him evidence I had been on terrain. This is another issue where i need to contact the board members.
Agree with the definition… Nevertheless you do delete ways that are totally walkable. About 25 examples i’ve enclosed here are evidence with photos, videos and even several other people! What’s your excuse for those deletions? You are not the one who decides if there are many or not. That’s a subjective selection!
Same goes when you use decide what is authorized or not, or use the term illegal whereas there is nothing to prove so. Beautiful example on this note: you deleted a track over grass for the reason “Let people take the semi paved way around”, despite vehicle traces and a touristic info board in the middle of that grass area. Where is the logic? Can’t you realize that maybe some years ago there were heavier vehicle trails and since then grass has grown, or is it because it’s not crossable as you say? No huge weeds, branches, fallen trunks though, according your definition!
changeset 102199648: Just a normal discussion between 2 contributors, everything explained, none of your direct business.
way 603101581: it is usable on the S side as visible on your photo yet you erased it. N end, there is a trail for 15m I surveyed during night and I could find the entrance but the hill is steep and it’s possible that at its end people try to find different safe portions between trees hence less visible. It’s one of those ambiguous trails.
changeset 124929084: just another normal discussion, none of your direct business
changeset 145249532: a track i created five years ago and he deleted a month ago! Isn’t nature allowed to grow/evolve? You can’t even realize that…
changeset 131245821: You talk about way 892073686 going on field, I’ve been there from N side. Revert my CS 96931968 and you will see it’s a new way after splitting your track, yes you are the original creator of that track! On terrain the only continuity possible was on the field’s border. On OSM, I had make sense out of you mistaken addition, cut and displace further E on the field because it was not crossable where you placed it. YOU HAVE SUCH A NERVE to say i created it!!! Screenshot of reverted changese 96931968! I had explained you this years ago, you still don’t get it…
Khushaldas%20Badhan notes: all paths have been created at least 3 years ago, some more, are paths leading to hunting stands and are rarely used, for the tracks + walls I’m not concerned at all. Again, your analysis is flawed just like the previous example.
I’ve contributed to OSM for a decade, encountering occasional differing opinions but nothing serious. You, as what I have observed, are a very unethical. You use sock-puppet accounts like eyasonu here, you propagate rumours about my private life (according @woodpeck ), you create misplaced photos and claim objects do not exist…
To the real contributors reading, I’ve learned with time that OSM success hinges on objective actions: go on terrain, observe existence, insert it in OSM with the appropriate tags. I just hope people here will check at least some of my counter-argumentation to realize what is really going on.
I digged through the user blocks and found the original block issued by the DWG and a follow-up that suspected block evasion.
This might give additional perspective so I thought it’s worth sharing here.
My personal summary of the DWG position: Both mappers should not make edits that could be viewed as controversial and should seek community consensus for their mapping disagreements. They should both refrain from personal attacks and bad-mouthing the other person.
So I think the approach of both here is flawed: They should try to find a consensus on mapping styles within the community that they both can then adhere to. Instead this thread seems to feature many personal attacks which the DWG warned against.
I appreciate that your try to sort this out, thanks! However that’s not the original block. Everything started on this one 3 years ago. The last 9 blocks are all because of this complex issue. Dare I say, woodpeck is still in charge of the ticket since the issue was never given any verbal conclusion. I was waiting in the hope but then ex tomolobla changed account to occult himself. Because of woodpeck’s silence, I tried to expose this person through comments and fixme tags explaining directly on data. UnfortunatelySomeoneElse and woodeck interpreted this as ad-hominem. According definition or see this diagram, I was rather trying to counterargument with the aim to stop the on going deletions.
I totally would love to find a consensus and get rid of this issue but this is only possible with reasonable people who are honest and ethical. All my speech here is just an attempt to demonstrate this person is not at all reasonable. Also how could I also forgive someone who spreads rumours about my private life and creates sock-puppet accounts to contact others and discredit me…
Edit: also this issue is not only about mapping style. In my point of view, it’s about deletions of features that exist on the ground.
Yes sure, that’s all I want in the end: the existing features rendered back on the map. Thanks for refocusing!
● On my Komoot activity with GPS and photos there are 2 deleted ways
You could be a highly productive team, you could be Luxemburg Allstars on OSM, a shining example of dedication, if you used this energy in a constructive way.
With the motivation we have, we really could be. I actually once made a proposal to coordinate individual surveys but the tilt had already happened.
Which leads me to ask S to please, please calm down
Following requests (I’ll also do the fixes):
way 123096070 There has been added a fence, as mapped, blocking off the access to the road. I’ve seen the fence while passing there.
way 149684381 Good, the 2021 imagery showed another tendance.
way 892809415 Weird one, see the fixme. Oddly, I remember see a private sign for a few months on that stairs after the local hiking trail was removed. But ok, can be put back, I also checked the parcels.
way 603101581 Ok, first 15m from N to be de-deactivated, sorry but S is rapidly decaying as the official hiking trail has been removed. This is in line with the new user’s feedback.
Leading me to: Your page long changeset comments do shoo away new contributors. The new contributors I featured only follow the tracks-to-map definition I wrote above. Sorry, but they don’t need essays on your personal preferences. People just block off.
I am (too) tolerant but I am not fine with you painting the picture that you exclusively map what you survey. You did map for years nearly exclusively off of lidar and strava heatmap. Creating many quite crucial path/track links that don’t exist. This indeed led me to distrust your edits. Not finding mapped ways on the ground is very frustrating. I’ve received feedback from several active people having planned (oc unbeknown) off of OSM data who encountered many inexisting or overgrown ways. (Leaving away their expletives.) That is a reality.
I am also not tolerating how and what you wrote on my photo notes in Belgium. See Note: 4065292 | OpenStreetMap The photos are clear, the leaves have fallen months ago.
The private sign at Note: 4064823 | OpenStreetMap leaves room for interpretation, yes people do ignore private signs (which ironically aren’t always legal but we map them). Your further remark, with your screenshot, on the heat of the E path shows exactly your recurring wrong interpretation of strava heatmap. It shows here that a few people got lost searching for ways. As a meanwhile deleted photo note (https://i.postimg.cc/tC9G1Qfh/192587.jpg) showed, there is definitely no connection. Again, this is a perfect example of how faint heatmap looks that should not be mapped without surveying or photos from other people. If you’d map following this, most our problems would instantly be gone. I am not exaggerating.
Please - try and make a case for how things should be mapped without making a case against other mappers. On this block I wrote “However, any attempt to bully other OSM contributors will be dealt with harshly.”. You’ve been dangerously close to that both in this thread and your previous one. It’s great that you’re discussing things here but you have to do that in a way that doesn’t belittle other people.
We are not done. I wanted to leave some time so that the community comments on the last examples I gave…
It’s not a tagging problem, it is mainly about deletions of existing features and other falsifications like the false address!
For these last 3 ways, Kugelbaum confirmed himself that he was not right to erase. Plus 2 ways (link to village and concrete bridge) we discussed here more above and he pseudo-restored. Plus these steps he deleted in 2021 then restored here after I posted evidences here. Plus a path leading to a benchhe deleted v5 in 2021, I restored, then he deletes again v7 in 2023 but he restores v8. Seriously! Plus 2 ways confirmed by contributors Stijn Bossuyt here and loukote here, these guys are part of the community.
TEN FEATURES FALSIFIED confirmed here and ZERO confirmation i added fake ways. Reminder, I listed about 35 issues in my external file.
So what… isn’t this enough to confirm he repetitively falsifies data!
Do we need more??? I’m getting tired of wasting my energy!
I said (and you quoted me above) “try and make a case for how things should be mapped without making a case against other mappers”. In your reply above you have completely failed to do that.
You are just repeating some of the same things, such as:
As I’m sure everyone here is aware your addition of “fake ways” was extensively discussed here, and was one of the things mentioned in this block here as well.
With regard to your interpretation of “paths” (or historical paths) in Luxembourg. I’ve reviewed copious evidence provided by “both sides” in the dispute. One view isn’t exclusively correct and the other side wrong - what is needed is a bit of common sense and a bit of compromise. Messages such as the one that you have just posted unfortunately suggest that you are utterly incapable of that.
OpenStreetMap, by its very nature, is a shared enterprise. If you can’t work together with other people I can only suggest that it is not the project for you.
(to be clear, I’m writing as one of the Data Working Group people who has been involved in this dispute over the years).
EXCUSE ME??? I just synthesised what has been confirmed in this post, by other contributors and I counted how much has been confirmed.
You are ignoring the demonstrations and try to reverse the situation by making a case against me ! You just allowed youself to do what you’ve suggested us to avoid. Since you are going on that pathetic path, I’ll defend myself.
To all contributors reading, please keep a neutral critical mindset based on facts. Like on this post, my experience has raised questions about potential conflicts of interest among certain DWG members. Instead of prioritizing impartial assessment based on data and facts, some have overlooked misjudgments to maintain favorable relationships with their peers. Hello favoritism/nepotism! Be aware that several of these individuals run businesses that benefit from OSM data. Unlike them, I am solely a volunteer with no commercial ties to OSM.
The DWG is prone to errors also, they are certainly not perfect! They are supposed to intervene for OSM’s data and rely on facts with knowledge. Yet, as I’ve demonstrated here, I’ve been able to teach SomeoneElse something after he dared jumping on me with “As xxx makes clear” " thinking i had reverted a CS but he was just fooled by the software. @SomeoneElse, you didn’t even excuse yourself! Awful style!
So it would be more relevant to have evidence to support what you’re saying about me otherwise that is defamation and punishable by law! You have never been able to point directly with text or data showing i have bad behaviour throughout the multiple times I’ve asked in order to understand. No wonder I’m pissed off!
All my blocks explained:
2016, I was using MPs to ease my contributions because iD is a hassle. I’ve admited this and corrected myself.
2021, is when this issue started, woodpeck asked both parts to only contribute what we had surveyed while DWG would investigate, no investigation response was ever given though.
3 days later, even though the day before i sent woodpeck GPS data, photos etc of my survey, this unfair block states my CS was not based on a survey. This is the block that made me lose hope about the DWG.
unfair block on a desperate attempt to warn my region (LU is small) directly on fixmes or CS with evidence, because after several months there was still no investigation response from DWG, deletions were still going on.
unfair blocks because I was still attempting to warn my region.
unfair block because woodpeck was fed up after I reported ltwo AKA Kugelbaum for deleting cliffs.
All this non sense yet I keep my account!? I know where i stand!
That thread from dpolovinkin you linked has nothing to do with “me adding fake ways”! It’s a complaint about “too many cliffs based on LIDAR”, he dared to erase many before discussion. Several people @Mammi71@Vinzenz_Mai@tekim@yvecai either confirmed what he did was “bad style”, the cliffs I contributed were correct and/or that LIDAR is a good tool. dpolovinkin even restored them!
Indeed I don’t want to work with a person having unethical behaviours and questionable contributions demonstrated in this post! Yet you ignore it all… I’ve always welcomed others to discuss with me, should it be critics with evidences. I don’t mind and would gladly correct myself!
oh, another thread!
just to mention, there were also some people there in my thread who were saying that such lidar mapping is redundant/unnecessary, you just, as I see, decided not to mention it here, when you obviously went through all the thread collecting usernames for this thread for make this…argument…?
And oh, you again warping the situation here, I restored those cliffs not because I saw that they are correct, don’t make a wrong assumption, but because it is only right, I realised, to not change anything before there is a consensus in community.
And it’s actually quite perplexing, putting topic aside, to see someone with 10 blocks in his profile who really thinks that virtually all of them are unfair and he was so wronged.
To rephrase: “if everywhere you go smells bad, maybe it’s time to check your shoes”, don’t you think?
I hope that both (@dpolovinkin and @SHARCRASH) of you realize that you are not collecting any brownie points for your continuous arguing and that you are both well on the way to joining the small and exclusive group of people that have been perma-banned from participating in OSM.
If you can’t reach consensus on how to map something specific, then simply stop mapping it and leave it to other people. There are always more than enough other things to do in OSM.
